Poll

I think we should implement...

Suggestion 1 (as-is)
11 (19%)
Some form of suggestion 1
5 (8.6%)
Suggestion 2 (as-is)
7 (12.1%)
Some form of suggestion 2
4 (6.9%)
Suggestion 3 (as-is)
8 (13.8%)
Some form of suggestion 3
8 (13.8%)
Suggestion 4
12 (20.7%)
My suggestion(s) which is/are in a reply below
3 (5.2%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: January 27, 2018, 06:47:49 PM

Author Topic: Shield Rebalancing  (Read 1434 times)

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Offline njames89

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 08:22:26 PM »
0
I might just throw some points into shield now that i am lvl 34 and test that out

Offline San

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2018, 06:23:21 AM »
+3
I have been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and I think there can be a stats-based approach to making things better, meeting the OP halfway on many of his points. I think shields can be buffed a fair amount and be OK since there are enough good bonus vs. shield weapons to counter them.

1. Accept shield skill is not that great and that the current 0-1 difficulty shields are still trash.

A long time ago the worst shields were significantly buffed, but that obviously isn't nearly enough to be competitive. Overbuffing them is not an option since you don't want them to just be better than the more expensive higher difficulty shields.

Solution: Lower difficulties even more.
-All current 1 difficulty shields -> 0 difficulty (accept that current 0 difficulty shields won't really be used in favor of the new 0 difficulty shields)
-Shields up to Black Leather Scottish Shield -> 1 difficulty


2. We have many durable shields that no one wants to use

The large and durable shields have incredible weight to offset the bonuses, but I think that the extremely low speed is too much of an additional disadvantage. (Subject to change), I think the minimum speed should be 85 and scale up from there. Devs may know more about the unwieldiness of low shield speed and a good minimum, worst case that it is placebo.

<= 80 speed -> 85
81-82 speed -> +5
83-85 speed -> +4
86-92 speed -> +3
93-95 speed -> +2
96-98 speed -> +1

3. Improve the scaling of shield armor values

Shields are essentially the same with slight buffs for each difficulty. It's ok, but I think that shield skill can be more valuable with noticeable improvements between difficulties. To start, I think that shield armor for 3-4 difficulty shields should approach the 30s more regularly.

+2 Armor for 2 difficulty shields
+3 Armor for 3 difficulty shields
+4 Armor for 4 difficulty shields
+2 Armor for high armor/popular shields such as huscarl


I think that these are some of the easy fixes that can be done (the tougher being adjusting shield prices and internal balance), the fast shields are good enough already. An alternative to the changes above is to somehow add mobility buffs for shields, such as removing the encumbrance when the shield is on your back or reducing the effect of the shield weight on movement in some way.

Shield skill provides damage resistance, force field, and some other small factors, but quite frankly it's not enough compared to other skills. It's similar to ironflesh where it's helpful on most characters but not that amazing, and surprisingly most buffs to the skill will make it OP.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 08:00:32 AM by San »

Offline McKli_PL

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2018, 07:24:14 PM »
0
@San
plz mate don't think much on stats, just get back to this crpg shithole and save us (only one NA balancer with brain) :!:

Offline San

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2018, 07:36:38 PM »
+2
Due to inactivity, I don't think I should have power to change much right now due to lack of knowledge. I'd rather post here and the discord public channels for more discussion.

Other than stats that stand out to me for a class that I've played for years, I don't think that you'd want me to mess with things I know nothing about nowadays. All of it comes from personal experience since I personally disliked using the clunky slow shields (know a few who did though..).

Offline Jona

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2018, 06:24:13 PM »
0
All of it comes from personal experience since I personally disliked using the clunky slow shields (know a few who did though..).

Yeah, I only ever used the heavy round shield on my main since it fit my clan's theming and looked dope to boot. I've always been one to play how I want without too much regard for actual stats, and that includes looking as good as possible. That said, when I specced my alt to be a pure 1h/shield build I only used the elite cav shield, as it didn't feel too different from manual blocking, even without the MWed speed buff. Using a slower shield and caring about your performance can be quite frustrating, as it is just far too clunky to keep up in melee combat. Imo, just having less of an affect on your movement speed should make the lightweight shields more appealing than heavier ones. Add in the fact that they're also able to block much faster and it becomes a no-brainer when looking to pick the competitive option. Also, if it were possible to buff the effectiveness of the heavier shields against crushthrough (but not the lighter ones) that'd at least give a little more incentive to use them.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2018, 06:30:58 PM »
0
So 0 skill shields are actually terrible even with skillpoints, it makes you dodge less and just get shot in the feet. Definitely needs some overall buffs for coverage. Get a shield argument still works, only needs 2-3 points for a solid board, but i think game could be more lenient towards duel builds just cause they are apparently what cRPG is supposed to be balanced around.
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Offline Silveredge

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2018, 04:48:04 AM »
+1
I could probably get behind some shield buff changes.  More shielders always shifted the views on what ranged means for the game.  I would be very careful with these changes though, or else you'll see a bunch of crossbow/everyone users with weightless shields on their back, because... why not?  I don't feel like shields are "useless".  Jona, are you sure you're not just a tiny bit bias'd with your obvious Avatar?  =P  I seem to remember you busting shields in 2 swings, if that...  Maybe it's, "if you have an axe it seems really bad"?

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I always found it funny when the last ones alive were a non-shielder vs. multiple ranged characters, and the melee is basically going...  The arrows are incoming, and there's 10 pieces of wood at my feet to protect me... But it's too hard... I don't know what a shield is or how to use it...

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Having a shield on your back as a melee shielder, skillfully finishing the last enemy melee while the shield on your back blocks an incoming arrow (shot from a cross eyed ranged mebbe, amirite?) does sound pretty cool.

Offline Jona

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2018, 07:22:28 PM »
0
(click to show/hide)

If I'm biased in any way it's due to my use of shields, not because I find myself shattering them too often (and to be fair, that hardly sounds like a problem :twisted:). And I seem to recall the last time I saw you on the battlefield you shot me in the back of my head even while I was using my shield as a hoplite and when I proceeded to call you a coward you said you were merely taking the opportunity to put down a key player, or whatever it was that you tell yourself so you can sleep at night. :P

Tbh the durability of shields isn't even close to the top of the list of their problems (I have 5 shield skill and use a MW heavy round, so it's pretty tanky), it's mostly the fact that shields are the supposed counter to ranged, and yet carrying any decent shield with you makes you move just about as slowly as they do... only archers can shoot you while running away and you can't do anything but block and chase, with little, if any hope of catching up.

Having a shield on your back as a melee shielder, skillfully finishing the last enemy melee while the shield on your back blocks an incoming arrow (shot from a cross eyed ranged mebbe, amirite?) does sound pretty cool.

Indeed it does, and currently your shield can block projectiles even if you're simply running with it at your side, or holding an attack, however it backfires almost all the time because oftentimes something blocked by your shield when you're holding an attack isn't likely to hit you anyways, and when it hits your shield you get put into stun for some odd reason, similar to if you blocked a projectile with your shield in a blocking position. Needless to say it can be just as bad as actually getting hit by the projectile if you're in the middle of a fight, take your chance and throw out an attack, only to have it interrupted and canceled mid-swing by an arrow harmlessly hitting your shield.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 07:28:40 PM by Jona »
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Offline Silveredge

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2018, 05:41:37 AM »
0
I seem to recall the last time I saw you on the battlefield you shot me in the back of my head even while I was using my shield as a hoplite and when I proceeded to call you a coward you said you were merely taking the opportunity to put down a key player, or whatever it was that you tell yourself so you can sleep at night. :P

Just because experienced ranged know exactly to what extent those huge invisible shield barriers protect shielders, doesn't mean they aren't supposed to exploit that knowledge.  :P  If a shielder isn't pointing their shield at me, I should absolutely be able to hit them.  Anything else is just ridiculous.  Now, with good shield skill, the windows to hit them are tighter than you think, if they are facing exactly 90 degrees away from me, I have to either time the shot with them moving to block an ally, at a different angle, or aim at the back 1/2 of their head or more when they have higher shield skill, since anything else will impact the shield, even though the bolt clearly hit them.  It's just so common that players don't put that many points into shield skill.  This was through personal experience and many talks with various shielders over time.  Any players that only meet the requirements of the shield pretty much fall into the category of barely able to protect themselves, with clean straight on defensive angles.  This is why you see me take so many shots at the very top of player's heads with any sort of elevated angle.  Or even just shoot the top of their head from straight on.  One, most players just don't have the shield skill, where it makes it possible to overcome it.  It strains the shield skill effect against that invisible bubble.  With good shield skill, unless you're aiming at 1/3rd of the body behind the shield, it will be pulled into the shield's invisible dome. 

If they're pointing the shield beyond 90 degrees away from me, then I should definitely be able to just hit any part of the exposed player.  The better shielders, like Manowar, didn't wear much armor in comparison to others.  I mean a mail hauberk...(Dat Q-cumberance, amirite?  Oh god, that joke is ancient...) he depended more on his shield and shield skill.  Not only this, but what tiny fraction of cRPG shielders still care about the mechanic of proper directional blocks with a shield, cause it to get not as destroyed so fast?  I feel like this was way more extreme in the original intent of the M&B creators.  I can hit a shield for a silly long time with a sword before it will break, way longer against proper blocks.  Should this be taken into account in balancing, does the general community even think about this when weighing in if shields are balanced?

Quote
it's mostly the fact that shields are the supposed counter to ranged, and yet carrying any decent shield with you makes you move just about as slowly as they do... only archers can shoot you while running away and you can't do anything but block and chase, with little, if any hope of catching up.

Yeah, I would say it's hard to approach this in an effective, non-heavy handed manner.  On one side, a good game doesn't contain absolute final hard counters, only better-to-very good ways of dealing with a problem.  If you tell someone, well this afk player has a shield, so you just immediately die if you shoot an arrow even remotely close to him...  doesn't sound like fun.  You have a melee oriented player who only thinks melee players should have fun, and non-melee should be happy to keel over dead when they turn to gaze on the ranged scum.  Then you just have two players reconnecting with whatever alt auto-wins against the other player, infinitely.  Might as well just play rock-paper-scissors at that point.  Now, obviously that's not what you meant, but there are the two extreme sides of the coin, and somewhere in between is the illusive happy medium.  I tend to think the game is balanced around team play, so shielders, in my mind, are the anchor that the team plays around.  Do we balance for 1v1, or team based scenarios?  If a shielder isn't pointing their shield at me, I should be able to hit them.  I probably have a lot of feel for the shield bubble from figuring out what kind of angles I could kill anywhere from your basic fake shielder, to Manowar/KevinD/that full plate french canadian with the metal shield?/Matey, to those naked dudes with 13 shield skill(invulnerable at the time).  So considering the current state of the game, I do think shielders should receive a buff, but not an overall wide sweeping buff that would threaten to immediately throw things out of balance.

Quote
currently your shield can block projectiles even if you're simply running with it at your side, or holding an attack, however it backfires almost all the time because oftentimes something blocked by your shield when you're holding an attack isn't likely to hit you anyways, and when it hits your shield you get put into stun for some odd reason, similar to if you blocked a projectile with your shield in a blocking position. Needless to say it can be just as bad as actually getting hit by the projectile if you're in the middle of a fight, take your chance and throw out an attack, only to have it interrupted and canceled mid-swing by an arrow harmlessly hitting your shield.

I think all archers are very familiar with that aggravating feeling of connecting with the shield just moving around, when the enemy is engaged with your teammate(another reason to aim for the head).  I would agree that it shouldn't stun you.

[My Suggestion]
My opinion is that a good change would be adjusting the effective arc of benefit to the invisible bubble from shield skill.  Make lesser shield skill increase the invisible bubble sooner, but don't let extreme unbreakable shield levels back into the game(complete separation of absorption/armor/speed benefit[not sure if possible]), from shield skill.  I remember the times when this was actually being put into place, and I can recall not even being able to hit someone 2 people over from a single shielder in a group melee.  It literally hit the shield of the shielder that was just blocking, two people over!  This was absolutely infuriating, and the only time this should happen is in a full shield wall(which I don't think and hope, ever reached that same level).  This would be a separate change from just dropping the requirements of shields, which honestly has nothing to do with shield effectiveness against ranged and this change may end up hurting more than helping since lower shield skill in general means you're getting hit by even more ranged!  In the end, either your arrow/bolt hits THEM or the SHIELD.  People don't remotely care as much about anything else.  Arrows do next to nothing to a shield, and bolts do a little more than that.  I don't see how getting access to a shield that has more armor and health will change the fact that you're getting hit by ranged, since you would be rewarded for having even less shield skill, which is what really matters if you want to NOT get hit by ranged.  Past a certain point, shield health and armor only matter in melee.

I would say important factors are shield skill, and decent speed of the shield (which is very small compared to the shield skill [talking about invisible bubble here]).  This may have been a part of the update that wasn't given enough love to the extent it needed, when the levels were re-adjusted.  With lower levels all around, all players had to make decisions on what to give up, but this probably needs to get underlined with the current state of our ranged problem.

So maybe the combination of the highly suggested reduction of shield requirements and strengthening/adjusting the arc of the benefit to the invisible barrier from shield skill is what needs to happen.  Because I do not see shielders with the difficulty to hit in the days of old anymore.  Only the back pixels of their helmet were hittable from the side.  That was the extreme version, but it's that choice of adjusting for common skill levels of the community vs. new comers that we're faced with now.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 05:48:08 AM by Silveredge »

Offline Jona

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2018, 05:52:55 PM »
+3
(click to show/hide)

Lol well damn, that was far more insightful than necessary... I was just saying that I indeed was using a shield when we last met, and that you, being the crafty lil ranged player that you are, took full advantage of an obvious disadvantage of shields, being that they leave you open on most sides (unless you had one of those 13 shield skill builds).

(click to show/hide)

Yeah, in no world should shielders get a guaranteed free kill on ranged, just like ranged shouldn't get a guaranteed free kill on all un-shielded infantry *cough cough.*  :wink:  Just the general mentality of the mod "get a shield lul" tends to lead people to "believe" shielders should automatically solve the ranged problem, but as I've said before:

People really need to dispel the notion that shields are a counter to ranged. At best, they're a coping mechanism.

Which  begs the question, what is the best "soft counter" (since really crpg doesn't have any rock paper scissors-style hard counters) against ranged? Many would say cavalry, if not shielders. But many cav players would argue that it is quite the contrary, as their horses fall apart like paper mache in the rain when getting hit with arrows. Really, as you said, the proper counter is teamplay, but unfortunately that is far too uncommon nowadays with clanstacks and large groups of people communicating outside of the game being smaller than ever. And with a lack of even a modicum of strategic gameplay, it really just leaves ranged players to counter other ranged players... which of course leaves the mod in a rather precarious state of balance where there is little incentive (other than the main draw: fun) to play a non-ranged class. Couple that with the fact that there is no guarantee both teams will have an even number of ranged, or even remotely equal amounts of skill among their ranged players, and you get plenty of [insert gif of leonidas getting shot by 10,000 arrows here] type of rounds.

(click to show/hide)

Ideally we could get some form of tiered rewards for shield skill, imo. For instance if you invest 1 - 3 points you get a rather significant increase in the forcefield of the shield, but barely any increase in shield speed or durability, leaving you with a slow, weak shield which is primarily going to be useful against ranged only. Then when you're investing your 4th - 6th points you get minimal return on investment for the invisible bubble against ranged, but now you get substantial increases in speed and durability, since you're really only investing this many points if you want to be using the shield in melee. Finally for your 7th+ skill invested you just get a small increase in all stats of the shield, speed, durability and forcefield, with diminishing returns so it never gets too out of hand, giving you full-body coverage against ranged or an unbreakable shield. Obviously this would take some coding know-how, if it's even at all possible, but It'd be a decent way to go about giving people what they want out of their shield skill, imo. Let those bringing it along just to counter ranged have a decent shield+forcefield to hide behind, and let those bringing it into the melee with them have a useful tool to assist them, not hinder them.

That, and #LetUsRunFastWithShields
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Offline Silveredge

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2018, 08:29:53 PM »
0
Ideally we could get some form of tiered rewards for shield skill, imo. For instance if you invest 1 - 3 points you get a rather significant increase in the forcefield of the shield, but barely any increase in shield speed or durability, leaving you with a slow, weak shield which is primarily going to be useful against ranged only. Then when you're investing your 4th - 6th points you get minimal return on investment for the invisible bubble against ranged, but now you get substantial increases in speed and durability, since you're really only investing this many points if you want to be using the shield in melee. Finally for your 7th+ skill invested you just get a small increase in all stats of the shield, speed, durability and forcefield, with diminishing returns so it never gets too out of hand, giving you full-body coverage against ranged or an unbreakable shield. Obviously this would take some coding know-how, if it's even at all possible, but It'd be a decent way to go about giving people what they want out of their shield skill, imo. Let those bringing it along just to counter ranged have a decent shield+forcefield to hide behind, and let those bringing it into the melee with them have a useful tool to assist them, not hinder them.

That, and #LetUsRunFastWithShields

Having high shield skill would make you really familiar with your shield, making it apart of you and not a hinderance.  That would make sense to me.  If only one day I could learn how to not treat a crossbow and bolts like it weighed 15 metric tons...  :wink:

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2018, 03:55:03 AM »
+2
I am not sure how much shield internals can be changed in the game, perhaps some WSE magic?

One large issue is that decreasing difficulty lessens the effect of shield skill since that's their biggest point beyond incrementally increasing the forcefield. At the same time, no one in their right mind is going to devote 8+ points in shield skill. I think that shield skill giving access to a wider variety of shields is one of its best traits.

So I was thinking, why not double both the effects of shield skill as well as the requirements? Shield skill becomes like HA, a support skill that is AGI * 6 per point with double the potency. Decrease shield requirements by another point (there are only like 8 1-difficulty shields right now..).

Shielders will need to devote some shield skill to give small shields more of a force field or slow shields more speed without centralizing their entire build around acquiring absurdly high shield skill values. At that point, shield durabilities may see some nerfs afterwards depending on the effects on the meta (doubt it will be needed). At a glance, it looks like a huge buff, but at the same time I think shield skill needs to be that potent to be closer to Ironflesh, Riding, etc.


The biggest issue is that such a change requires a respec. Shielders may also become too strong if they can acquire both high shield skill and other stats too easily.

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2018, 05:26:04 PM »
0
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Not a bad place to start, since we at least know that this type of change is actually possible.
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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2018, 04:37:40 AM »
+4
Since the new patch, part of #1 has been done along with #3. Shields now slow you down much less when worn on your back, scaling with shield skill. 1 shield skill also helps with picking up other shields off the ground.

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Re: Shield Rebalancing
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2018, 04:49:47 PM »
0
Since the new patch, part of #1 has been done along with #3. Shields now slow you down much less when worn on your back, scaling with shield skill. 1 shield skill also helps with picking up other shields off the ground.

Smh we still haven't included the most important change, #4.
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