Author Topic: Buff Elite Scimitar  (Read 1057 times)

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Offline San

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2018, 01:46:06 AM »
+2
That's tough to answer since items were tweaked by many different people. I'm not sure who changed the elite scimitar myself. When I was balancing 1hs, a stab at 22p and below was essentially a non-factor, then I started factoring it in more at 23p and above.

Elite scimitar is a unique case imo due to the curved model acting as a wild card for balance. Can't really fault someone for taking that into account, or they just dislike the weapon :p

Offline Kadeth

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2018, 03:18:00 AM »
0
Oh, I'm not pointing the finger at anyone. I strongly disagree that a sub 23p stab is a non-factor, though. Like I said, a low pierce stab is still an effective feint and anti-cav utility.

I was drunk when I made this thread, but the more I think about it, I feel like 3-d weapons are pretty gimped in general. Stabs play a big part in the Warband meta, and I don't feel like the current balance system of just giving a 3-d weapon an extra point or two of speed or damage properly compensates for the loss of an important animation.
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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2018, 09:07:04 AM »
-1
I'd rather have three directions than a gimped thrust. For example, removing the thrust of the GLB would be a good buff, not a nerf. I prefer the elite scimitar over the arabian guard sword for battles. Duels is a different story.
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Offline Jona

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2018, 05:16:10 PM »
0
(click to show/hide)

Not saying your opinion is wrong, but uh... if opinions could be wrong, this one would be.
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Offline McKli_PL

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2018, 06:29:07 PM »
0
I'd rather have three directions than a gimped thrust. For example, removing the thrust of the GLB would be a good buff, not a nerf. I prefer the elite scimitar over the arabian guard sword for battles. Duels is a different story.
removing stab from glb would be a bit unfair, its shit attack but its massive when ur going for some spins and switching animations to get huge speed bonus.
and yeah scimi biggest pros is fucking 'curved' animation so its very nasty for abusing hit reg

Offline Yeldur

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2018, 09:30:29 PM »
0
gues what yeldur

ur fucking gay and i have i GIANT dong

kys

shut the FUCK up u smelly australian, dont get too big for ur boots just because there's two of u now
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Offline Kadeth

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2018, 10:26:48 PM »
0
shiteater making a totally illogical rebuttal just to be a contrarian

well thanks for the heads up
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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2018, 10:20:57 AM »
+1
Not saying your opinion is wrong, but uh... if opinions could be wrong, this one would be.

Your opinion doesn't concern me.

removing stab from glb would be a bit unfair, its shit attack but its massive when ur going for some spins and switching animations to get huge speed bonus.

19 cut on a slow polearm is absolutely laughable. It had pierce stab at one point, but it was changed to cut without buffing damage. All the other polearms that had their thrusts changed from pierce to cut were buffed accordingly.

With the stab being as weak as it is, you basically get an attack that can't rear horses and deal 2/3 of the damage of the worst (cut) peasant weapons. All this on a slow polearm that's susceptible to thrust-stun because of its speed. In a dueling situation, an opponent can time blocking of stabs to force free hits, because of said thrust stun. With 19 cut you might even get bounces on good hits, considering most people use loomed high-tier armours nowadays. The weak thrusts of faster polearms have more use as they usually have blunt, pierce or higher cut damage. They're also fast enough to perform reliable dueling techniques (forced bounce into swing, intentional mis-hit stab into swing). It's true that thrusts are good for abusing speed bonus, especially on slower weapons, however on the GLB you're scaling off of 19 cut damage...

Considering how awful it is, I would like to see the stab removed or its damage buffed.


Sorry for highjacking this thread. It wasn't the plan. The problem with buffing the elite scimitar right now is that +1 damage would be the smallest buff you could give. This would make it one point faster than the AGS, and with the model being as it is, I'm not sure a 21 pierce stab is good enough to warrant the trade-off. In battle situations I feel it's already superior as you want to take down enemies as quickly as possible to help your team to victory. In those situations, where patience is not at its highest, I've always come to value curved weapons like scimitars and niuweidao, as people often fall for the weird feints you can perform. In duels there's a different mentality, and the lack of a thrust becomes more of a problem. I'm saying this as a +3 elite scimitar user. I'll take a buff if it's given, but I don't think it's warranted. Should you balance after battle or duels? How much should you value the curved model compared to raw stats?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 12:09:05 PM by Gurnisson »
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.
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Offline Rando

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2018, 11:36:23 AM »
0
1 speed > 1 dmg point

Also why would anyone ever stab with the arabian swords?

+ afaik weight also decreases your chance to glance, therefore heavy weapons hit harder overall.

Not even mentioning the broken animations of this sword, it has always been quite glitchy.

Nontheless I dont actually see anyone using it atm... so youre probably right, its shit.

Which is good.

Awful post, do you even read this shit after you type it?

I'd rather have three directions than a gimped thrust. For example, removing the thrust of the GLB would be a good buff, not a nerf. I prefer the elite scimitar over the arabian guard sword for battles. Duels is a different story.

I didn't even realize the GLB had its thrust changed to cut. Something tells me that's a balance oversight.
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Offline Kadeth

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2018, 02:05:20 PM »
+1
For example, removing the thrust of the GLB would be a good buff, not a nerf.

Sure, the GLB has a trash stab, but it's better than no stab at all. Is there something else you've forgotten to mention here?

I've always come to value curved weapons like scimitars and niuweidao, as people often fall for the weird feints you can perform.

I'd like to hear more about these weird feints, because from what I've seen in 8 years of playing in and watching scrims/duel tournaments, all Warband's best feint fuckery is based around stabs, and I thought that was widely accepted. Pretty much all the trickiest animation morphs involve a stab to side swing, hence why you see so many native players "abuse" it. I get that some people are confused by the curved models, but it's not something that you can't adapt to quickly. I'm sure I remember someone tweaking the scim model anyway, to more accurately represent its reach.

In duels there's a different mentality, and the lack of a thrust becomes more of a problem. I'm saying this as a +3 elite scimitar user. I'll take a buff if it's given, but I don't think it's warranted. Should you balance after battle or duels?

A lot of people act like duel skills are non-transferable to battle, which makes little sense to me, but mentalities aside, a thrust is an extremely useful animation to have in both game modes. Perhaps it's just a difference with the EU meta, because you'll regularly see NA, Oceania and CHN all use 1h stab with great success in battle. If anything, the stab feels more relevant in battle. I'll still use the best feints I can (which involve stabs), feel a bit safer around enemy cav, and have another useful tool for group fights. 3-D weapons give up all of that, is the extra 1 or 2 speed or damage really enough to compensate? I'm not so sure, but I'd really like to hear from current balancers about what they consider the loss of a stab to be worth in stats.

Again, I shouldn't have made the thread about the elite scimitar specifically. More of a broad question about what an animation is worth outside of its raw stats, on which i'm sure opinions will vary a lot as different play styles rely on feints more than others and whatnot.
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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2018, 02:55:16 PM »
+2
Sure, the GLB has a trash stab, but it's better than no stab at all. Is there something else you've forgotten to mention here?

I'd rather have no stab than a 19 cut one, to be honest. However, at one point it did lose its pierce stab while not receiving a buff to compensate. I believe that buffing its stab should be considered, as it's basically a gimmick with that damage. Having cut stab makes sense, but the damage is laughable at best. Like mentioned by Rand0, changing the stab to cut while not adjusting damage value must've been an oversight by the balancers, surely? If a stab buff won't be considered, it could be possible to get cRPG's first 3D polearm (which would be good for diversity as 1h and 2h has 3D weapons) by removing its stab. As it was nerfed earlier with no compensation, a slight swing damage buff could be considered at that point?

I'd like to hear more about these weird feints, because from what I've seen in 8 years of playing in and watching scrims/duel tournaments, all Warband's best feint fuckery is based around stabs, and I thought that was widely accepted. Pretty much all the trickiest animation morphs involve a stab to side swing, hence why you see so many native players "abuse" it. I get that some people are confused by the curved models, but it's not something that you can't adapt to quickly. I'm sure I remember someone tweaking the scim model anyway, to more accurately represent its reach.

Both the stab and the curved model has its uses when trying to breach an opponent's defense. We seem to prefer differently, at least for battles, but I do share your view that the 4th direction can make a big difference. As for adapting to the curved models, that's certainly a possibility for parts of the playerbase, but in mass melee you'll always kill off the ones who haven't. I'll definitely agree that when facing a good player, a 4th direction is worth more than a curved model.

A lot of people act like duel skills are non-transferable to battle, which makes little sense to me, but mentalities aside, a thrust is an extremely useful animation to have in both game modes. Perhaps it's just a difference with the EU meta, because you'll regularly see NA, Oceania and CHN all use 1h stab with great success in battle. If anything, the stab feels more relevant in battle. I'll still use the best feints I can (which involve stabs), feel a bit safer around enemy cav, and have another useful tool for group fights. 3-D weapons give up all of that, is the extra 1 or 2 speed or damage really enough to compensate? I'm not so sure, but I'd really like to hear from current balancers about what they consider the loss of a stab to be worth in stats.

Dueling skills are useful in battles, but awareness, decision-making and ability to down enemies quickly with use of reliable techniques are even more important for mass melee. I'd take a 1h weapon with a stab if I was to flank, hunt archers or similar, as you'd expect several smaller encounters. In the thick of the brawl I'd usually prefer a swinging 1h like the curved swords or maces, as, at least from my experience, they're better at killing enemies quickly. This often leads to numerical advantage, which can be the deciding factor.

Again, I shouldn't have made the thread about the elite scimitar specifically. More of a broad question about what an animation is worth outside of its raw stats, on which i'm sure opinions will vary a lot as different play styles rely on feints more than others and whatnot.

It's a nice topic for discussion actually, as it can't be compared directly to raw stats. We might not agree on all points, but I understand your point of view. The stab is certainly a benefit in some situations, but I feel the curved models has their benefits too.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 03:02:19 PM by Gurnisson »
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.
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Offline Jona

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2018, 08:30:03 PM »
+1
Stabbing with a polearm (or any wep) with a well-known shitty stab nearly makes that stab even more valuable than if it had higher damage - no one would ever expect you to actually let it rip if you add it into your feinting pattern, but when you do you get that extra little free damage that they never saw coming. I've gotten countless kills with the cut/blunt damage stabs on the axe polearms. If you're glancing and getting stunned as a result, that's on you for not having proper footwork or not taking into consideration the amount of armor your opponent has. As for the low damage cut v. pierce stab on the GLB specifically, as previously agreed upon that's probably an oversight and should get buffed in damage if not just switched back to pierce. Whatever happens though, it's still better with its current 19 cut dmg stab than being only 3 directional. Removing its stab wouldn't necessarily diversify the polearms at all, it would just remove it's identity as a polearm as their defining characteristic is that not matter how shitty it may be, they all have a stab.

As for feinting with curved weapons, never have I felt that they hold any advantage over straight 4 directional weapons... the only thing I'm aware of that anyone has ever complained about with regards to curved weapon models is that they seemingly have ghost reach, never until now have I heard people claim they have superior feints.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2018, 05:28:38 AM »
+1
Dont think the tiny 2-3hp hits you can sneak in with a 18c thrust can ever make up for the huge chunks you will take when that turd glances and youre stunned into a swing. Not to mention the slow turnrates on such a heavy weapon making it a super unreliable option to begin with.
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Offline Jona

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2018, 06:58:10 PM »
+1
Then git gud and don't glance, rofl. If you can't properly gauge when you can successfully stab, that's on you. If your opponent is decked out in plate armor, then don't even try it. If they're in medium armor, go for it if you can back it up with some speed bonus knowing that even then it might be a bit of a risk. Against light armor you can probably go for it most of the time unless there's some negative speed bonus involved. And as I previously mentioned, its primary use is to add to your feint pattern. Your opponent may not realize they can tank the stab when they probably can and downblock anyways. In no reality is removing an option, no matter how bad it is, better than simply keeping it as a mixup.
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Offline Gravoth_iii

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Re: Buff Elite Scimitar
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2018, 07:35:43 PM »
0
If i see a GLB feint thrusts towards me i'll just spam because theres no way i could possibly take enough damage from it that wouldnt be made up with a succesful hit from my swings. That big hunk of iron is unbalanced 88 speed and heavy, the scenario where a thrust could be a reliable option is so limited youd have more success teaching someone to be reliably good with a dagger and permanent chambering "just git gud and dont fail".
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