Poll

Which suggestion would you like to see? (can choose multiple)

1
35 (24%)
2
21 (14.4%)
3
28 (19.2%)
4
32 (21.9%)
5
30 (20.5%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Author Topic: 5 Suggestions on things to do before Strat reset to make it have longer life  (Read 1219 times)

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Offline Butan

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For me a big pro of resetting strat is the usage of the lower gear quality sets.

I know where you're coming from, but the mercs, the people that make strategus alive, couldnt care less as long as its balanced.
It might not encourage a proper revival if the grind is the same as before.
I can guarantee you that if there is again a situation where a big faction has plate superiorite weeks/months before others, it will die again.

Offline Tristan_of_Erzoth

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I know where you're coming from, but the mercs, the people that make strategus alive, couldnt care less as long as its balanced.
It might not encourage a proper revival if the grind is the same as before.
I can guarantee you that if there is again a situation where a big faction has plate superiorite weeks/months before others, it will die again.

with PP as it is theres no way they wont have it within a few weeks of strat being alive. With 1.7 mil silver you could equip a full army of 1k ticks with full plate(chest piece is roughly 770k, 127k for boots, 360k for helmets, 379k for gloves (heavy gothic helmet, gothic knightly chest chest, cased greaves, plated gloves at 60% + discount) is 1,615,570 silver). A decent sized faction of 10 players trading could easily get that in a month. With 40+ players in some factions? You're looking at a week or two to get that much silver even with lower amounts of S&D

Offline Sparvico

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+1
with PP as it is theres no way they wont have it within a few weeks of strat being alive. With 1.7 mil silver you could equip a full army of 1k ticks with full plate(chest piece is roughly 770k, 127k for boots, 360k for helmets, 379k for gloves (heavy gothic helmet, gothic knightly chest chest, cased greaves, plated gloves at 60% + discount) is 1,615,570 silver). A decent sized faction of 10 players trading could easily get that in a month. With 40+ players in some factions? You're looking at a week or two to get that much silver even with lower amounts of S&D

Honestly I think that would be a good thing. Strat needs mercs, and shitty cloth armor doesn't really bring them out. I do think the production gain needs to be reduced a bit, as it's currently at ludicrous speed, but in general the quicker we get into at least medium heavy gear the better. It's a matter of maintaining momentum at this point; the longer the new round takes to start up the less people will stick around to be regular mercs/play on NA_1. Ever since they took out fief voting the start of each strat round has felt mostly like a chore we have to complete so we can have our pudding.
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Offline Tristan_of_Erzoth

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+1
Honestly I think that would be a good thing. Strat needs mercs, and shitty cloth armor doesn't really bring them out. I do think the production gain needs to be reduced a bit, as it's currently at ludicrous speed, but in general the quicker we get into at least medium heavy gear the better. It's a matter of maintaining momentum at this point; the longer the new round takes to start up the less people will stick around to be regular mercs/play on NA_1. Ever since they took out fief voting the start of each strat round has felt mostly like a chore we have to complete so we can have our pudding.

AFAIK the fief voting can be reactivated if we want it to be. Maybe we should make a separate thread for that though as I didn't play back then and am not sure how it works

Offline Butan

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+1
with PP as it is theres no way they wont have it within a few weeks of strat being alive.

Yes, thats why I say it would be a good idea to have it stay the same for the next round, or just slightly nerfed, but not returned to normal.
And since Sparvico said it I think the fief voting could come back too: anything to speed things up really, and bring Strategus to its full potential fast.

So voted 1/4/5 because I think 2/3 are bad ideas.

Offline HESKEYTIME

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PP before wasn't working as intended due to an issue I believe, this meant gains were irregular so there's no straight comparison between the over-the-top PP gain we have now and how it was meant to be before.

Right now, PP is literally the only way to customise your fiefs and differentiate them from other fiefs. It's the only way to personalise the lands you take, and it's the fun part of fief management. IMO PP shouldn't just be something everyone has millions of, fiefs should be distinct from each other because the resource is limited.

Was the last round really worse because people didn't have a crap-load of PP? I guarantee you even with big discounts available early, people will still need roughly the same amount of time to get their trade going to decent levels. People ignored fief prosperity before cos of crime, without crime we'll probably have better faster economies anyway. No need to go ham with PP.

One thought I had in addition to make villages more desirable would be to swap the PP gains between villages and castles. IMO the natural advantage of a castle is that you're nearly 100% safe in it, can dump troops there forever and noone will touch you. It doesnt really need higher PP gain than villages in addition to this. Cities give more interesting battles generally than castles, and are a big investment to take initially so maybe they still deserve the highest PP gain. If villages gained 3 PP instead of 1, that would again make things kick off faster and with less grind but again not the 1000s of PP we're talking about now where I can instantly put everything I want to +3 and massive discount. When everything's discount, nothing's discount, why even have the mechanic at that point?

Other thoughts, troop gain right now is way too high for if we were starting a new round. Troop numbers are meaningless now and I believe from speaking to Prof this was a temporary thing to get Strat kickstarted and he even forgot he'd left the gain that high this long! So I don't really have any worries that we'll start a round with this over-the-top troop gain in it, I don't think that's anyone's intention. Tick gain is nice though, no need to change that imo. Bear in mind that if we implement my suggestion and each village gives ticks at the rate of 1-2 active players, we'll already find it much easier to mass troops and armies than previous rounds, but hopefully in a controlled fashion that isn't "I left my castle with 2k men, after a couple of days travelling I now have 4k men..." which we have right now.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 03:44:56 PM by HESKEYTIME »
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Offline Butan

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There is certainly a balance to be found between too much PP and not enough PP. Same for troops. I cannot say where is the balancing point exactly, it would need much thoughts. What I know is that the old formulas of PP/troops production will not work with our current population, including most optimistic revival numbers.


I also agree with you about how villages should be the economic motor of the land. The fact that castles and cities, which are overall easier to defend (some village's maps are exception) also have much better PP production make them way too valuable. Under the current meta, villages are best left as trade dump with 0 gear/0 armies/0 management, they could be entirely removed tomorrow and noone would bat an eye except very minor factions.


I dont know whether it would be best to fundamentally rethink everything or just keep the game buffed, its up to people who have responsabilities in the game.
But one quick fix for PP would be to have fiefs no longer produce PP per day, but just have an initial PP pool of X per villages, Y per castles and Z per cities.
Then if one wanted to follow your guidelines HESKEY, they would make it so that the initial PP pool would be like : villages > cities >>> castles (so that castles are near useless except to store armies and defend nearby villages which would be the heart of money and gear production)
If fiefs had a fixed initial PP pool that never go away, it would be much easier to think of a number. Compared to PP/day formulas, where you have to take into account that a round can last a full year or more, so you gotta think of a number that makes the first few months not too miserable, and the last stages not overly inflated.


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« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 04:01:13 PM by Butan »

Offline HESKEYTIME

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+1
The 'correct' amount of PP is really subject to how long a round is expected to last. On NA last Strat our activity peaked and then died off almost entirely within 6 months of Strat being reset, and even then we had enough PP to have large well-geared armies. The issue, at least in NA, wasn't that nobody had troops or gear it was that nobody was using them. Dumping more troops and gear on people won't solve this issue.

If we gain PP every single day now rather than the old buggy method (which is what Prof has already fixed) then we're already getting more PP.

If we swap PP between castles and villages then we get even more PP. So I really don't think that'll be a bottleneck, even if the round is only a couple of months.

There's an argument for each fief having a fixed number of PP instead of a daily gain like you said, since that means it's balanced regardless of how long a round lasts. But IMO customising your fief is the best part of owning one, the ongoing gain of PP is a reason to keep playing. To me it's the equivalent of grinding those higher levels on EU1, grind is part of cRPG, just as long as the initial essential grind isn't unbearable which IMO it won't be for PP.



For troops as I've already kinda touched on, there's no easy way to say what gain is 'too little' or 'too high' (barring extremes like we have right now, I left my castle with 2,800 men, now I have 4,200) because it entirely depends on how many troops players are actually using and fighting with. On an NA map where everyone's camping their castles with 10,000 troops, even gaining 1 troop a day is too fast.

I'd be tempted on this subject to leave it at 1 troop per hour if that player has ticks and 1-or-2 troops per hour in every village and see how this and the other tweaks change the aggressiveness of the map. If people are using all their troops, then we clearly need more. But wouldn't that be a fantastic position to be in as a community? That we're having so many battles we're actually out of troops and need to rebalance accordingly?

To me that's a much more positive and safe option than to balance in the reverse direction where everyone has more troops than they know what to do with, ticks mean nothing to people, and we panic rebalance to lower the troop gain but the map's already saturated with an inflated number. Strategus drama happens because people inexplicably care about their colourful blobs on the map and the numbers written in the upper-left. If those numbers become so high that they become meaningless, people care a whole lot less. That's why I've never really liked end-game Strat, everyone has infinite everything so people don't get mad when they lose anything, there's little drama to be had.

I'd rather we risk having to balance 'up' rather than risk having to balance 'down', since the latter would leave us with inflated numbers already on the map. I'd love to see how willing players are to use their troops when it's not simply a choice between attacking a village the defender won't bother showing up for, or attacking a castle where you'll only kill 200 men and lose over 1000.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 07:15:12 PM by HESKEYTIME »
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Offline Butan

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Strategus drama happens because people inexplicably care about their colourful blobs on the map and the numbers written in the upper-left. If those numbers become so high that they become meaningless, people care a whole lot less. That's why I've never really liked end-game Strat, everyone has infinite everything so people don't get mad when they lose anything, there's little drama to be had.

I would argue that people quit the game faster than troops stack up. In an average siege you can easily burn 2000-3000 tickets per hour, so its really hard to have too much troops. I've seen offensive campaign burn an entire faction worth of tickets in a week, especially when around 2/3 of the open field battles end up with helluva burned troops due to flag capping.

If the game was less buggy, the UI more readable, and attacks/comebacks easier, people wouldnt stack troops because they would play the game more (in a sense).

Funnily, if villages were very valuable targets, attacks would be way easier and tickets would be lost a lot more too. Having to attack castles 10 times in a row to get good PP/gear is the biggest drawback for most mercenaries and thus, strategus leaders. So your idea makes even more sense.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 04:29:52 PM by Butan »

Offline Bryggan

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The thing I really hated about strat was that after trading for so long you still had to wander the map looking for gear.  I'd prefer a 1 stop shop place myself.

Offline HESKEYTIME

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The thing I really hated about strat was that after trading for so long you still had to wander the map looking for gear.  I'd prefer a 1 stop shop place myself.

That's the min-maxer in you speaking xD you don't *have* to do that, but you're rewarded for putting in the extra time and effort. Now that everything's -1 instead of -2 by default, you can get +0 anything in your own fief for 1PP each. But if you're willing to ask or shop around you may find it cheaper and/or better elsewhere, but give them the tax money.

It's tradeoffs, which I like.
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Offline pogosan

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Don't think siege towers or ladders need to be changed, but what's really fucked up about siege equipment is selecting the enemy's forward base... Selecting is pretty quick and can be done quicker than some respawn times, making it a permanent spawning point afterwards (unless it's broken).

Just sharing some feedback based on the last battle, in which both sides used the trick, so it's not just salt.
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Offline Bryggan

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That's the min-maxer in you speaking xD you don't *have* to do that, but you're rewarded for putting in the extra time and effort. Now that everything's -1 instead of -2 by default, you can get +0 anything in your own fief for 1PP each. But if you're willing to ask or shop around you may find it cheaper and/or better elsewhere, but give them the tax money.

It's tradeoffs, which I like.

But my dear Heskey, you forget that you are a big nerd and love dealing with minutiae.  All that extra time and effort just slow down battles and only large, organized factions can arm quickly.  I think discounts should be lowered to maybe 40% max so money is the limiter.  People only want to use +3 gear, and also don't want to spend one month trading and 2 months going fief to fief to buy your helmets at one place, gauntlets at another etc.  Plus the risk of being attacked right in the middle of your shopping.

That is why many NAers used to do all their shopping in Eu where gear got loomed a lot quicker.

Offline HESKEYTIME

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But my dear Heskey, you forget that you are a big nerd and love dealing with minutiae.  All that extra time and effort just slow down battles and only large, organized factions can arm quickly.  I think discounts should be lowered to maybe 40% max so money is the limiter.  People only want to use +3 gear, and also don't want to spend one month trading and 2 months going fief to fief to buy your helmets at one place, gauntlets at another etc.  Plus the risk of being attacked right in the middle of your shopping.

That is why many NAers used to do all their shopping in Eu where gear got loomed a lot quicker.

I'm a big nerd who was too lazy to get +3 gear unless it was made in my fiefs or the fief next-door. Because we didn't want to shop around for weeks, and because we didn't have to.

I can't blame the lack of 1 or 2 points extra armour or damage on the poor battlefield performance of our armies. Going Cuir Broillie and Barbuttes early whilst our weapons were still scythes, hatchets and pickaxes was a bold choice xD

But a competent leader who wants to win battles can easily amass the +1s and +0s they need to fight from just a few fiefs. Why even go min-max for those extra 2 points of damage or protection when during the time you wait, everyone else's gear will step up to a shinier level? The loooong shop is unnecessary but gives the people who seek perfection something to do whilst us normies wait for PP or settle for more immediate gratification.
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Offline Tristan_of_Erzoth

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bump, 4 and 5 would be great to add in and 5 itself may bring in incentive for people to play strat again