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Author Topic: All one handed axes are trash  (Read 3496 times)

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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2013, 12:17:56 AM »
0
Times have changed? Last time I played native the ratio was 80% team ranged on both sides. And I was all like fuck this shit.

Native battles have a shit-ton of ranged, that is true, but a lot of it are from shielders spamming javs.
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Offline Jarold

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2013, 05:02:15 PM »
+1
The broad one handed battle axe is a beast. The thing about axes is you can break shields, they are fast, they deal a lot of damage, and they can be cheap upkeep.

I think you are overlooking this weapons niche.

Offline Palurgee

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2013, 08:46:33 PM »
+1
The thing about axes is you can break shields

Yes, they break shields more quickly than other weapons.

they are fast

No, they aren't fast. They are collectively much slower than most swords.

deal a lot of damage

Their cut damage is high. Is this balancing? Somewhat. Is it realistic? No. An axe is light, short, and top-heavy. They are swung very quickly and with considerable force, but severely lacking in length. Those are the properties of realistic one-handed axes. cRPG axes are instead heavy, slow, short, and hard-hitting. Take the iron war axe for example; it is the heaviest, slowest, shortest, and hardest-hitting cut damage one-hander in the upper tier. These are the properties that should belong to maces, not axes. That is the realism argument. The game balance argument is that they are weak to be viable as strong primary one-handed weapons. They are too short, slow, and only have three attack directions. The compensation for this -- the ability to break shields -- falls a little short. As a result, you get people using axes as sidearms for fighting shielders rather than as the primary weapon. And why should it be? It lacks the length to fight skilled cavalry, agility builds can scoot backwards and constantly stay out of its reach, and even with those extra two points in cut damage it is still slower and shorter than most swords.
The Grosse Messer is longer than the Broad One Handed Battle Axe. It has equal damage and four attack directions. It is faster, cheaper, and requires 1 less strength to use. The only reason to pick the Broad One Handed Battle Axe is for the shield-breaking, and as I explained before: you can break your opponents shield, but the advantage of fighting an enemy without a shield is expunged by the fact that your weapon's stats are bad.

and they can be cheap upkeep.

They have just as much upkeep as any other sword. Saying that they "can be cheap upkeep" isn't really a considerable factor in balancing them. A sword or mace also "can be cheap upkeep."


Offline Jarold

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2013, 12:24:58 AM »
+1
You separated all the pros I listed for the axe instead of thinking about how you get all that in one package. It's not about this one sword is faster, and this other sword is cheap, and then there is this sword that does more damage. It's about how an axe does more then those sword but with it's only con being less reach. Also the cheap upkeep part was about having an axe that deals more damage than most swords at almost a fourth of the cost depending on which axes and swords you are comparing.

Military Cleaver, one of the highest cut damage swords slower than all other one handed axes, doesn't break shields, deals the same amount of damage as the axes, and it's heavier. Only pro is that it's longer.


But if you want a fast 1h weapon you are going to have to sacrifice some damage, but the axe has speed and damage, 98 speed can be spammed easily. I'm not sure if you've used many 1h axes?

If you want a long 1h you are going to have to sacrifice speed, usually, and they still won't deal as much damage. So there are trade offs.

The Iron War Axe deals the most damage out of all 1h. So obviously it needs a trade off speed and reach. Grosse messer isn't good for fighting cav, or s-keys.


In the end it all comes down to which weapons you are comparing because, thankfully, we have a nice variety of one handers that have pros and cons over eachother. You want more damage, sacrifice speed or length, you want more speed, sacrifice length or damage, you want to be fast and high damaging and have the ability to break shields, sacrifice length.

Axes have their own niche to fill and they do it well. Obviously they will be worse in some situations and better in others, just like all weapons.

Offline Nightmare798

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2013, 03:47:51 PM »
+1
you somehow forget that you can send someone s shield down to drain in 5 hits...
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Offline WITCHCRAFT

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2013, 09:15:38 AM »
+2
I would really like to see some heavy 1H axes and maces that are unbalanced. That would add some more variety to weapons, which is a good thing in my mind.
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Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2013, 06:03:40 PM »
+1
My biggest complaint about axes is that their damage to shields bonus is not that noticeable.  It shouldn't take 6 plus swings of a MW bardiche to break an elite cav shield, even if that is MW too.

Basically, axes are slow, short, high in cut damage (terrible against armor), have no stab and unbalanced.  Those are pretty much all of the worst traits in the game, yet they still suck at their purpose.  If you asked me if I'd rather have a Longsword or a Bardiche against a shielder, I'd take the Longsword 10 out if 10 times and try to spam the fucker to death.
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Offline Nightmare798

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2013, 07:59:41 PM »
+1
My biggest complaint about axes is that their damage to shields bonus is not that noticeable.  It shouldn't take 6 plus swings of a MW bardiche to break an elite cav shield, even if that is MW too.

Basically, axes are slow, short, high in cut damage (terrible against armor), have no stab and unbalanced.  Those are pretty much all of the worst traits in the game, yet they still suck at their purpose.  If you asked me if I'd rather have a Longsword or a Bardiche against a shielder, I'd take the Longsword 10 out if 10 times and try to spam the fucker to death.

not noticable? who the hell are you kidding here? i definitelly feel a ton of difference when i am fighting a swordsman and an axeman.
if anything, the bonus is a little op. people are stopping to buy swords because axes make shield plain useless.
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Offline Kriegson

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2013, 03:55:38 PM »
0
Having just gotten back into CRPG I can hardly make an educated statement on the meta, but in general I have noticed one handed swords and the occasional mace show up FAR more often than axes.

Would be nice if perhaps axes had less of a chance to glance (assuming they don't) considering the weight and momentum being transferred into a more focused surface area further removed from the center of mass. I would think it would be only slightly less likely to glance an axe off armor than a mace (Depending on axe and armor of course).

If I had my way, I would add a new damage type for "Chopping" used on heavy single edged swords and axes. A mix between hammers and swords, rather than simply "Cutting". Considering the comparison between say...a katana and a danish axe as both simply being "Cutting" weapons is a bit silly.

Though that's far too much work for far too little a nitpick.

Offline Matey

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2013, 06:33:24 AM »
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what makes axes iffy is the tiny reach, lack of stab, cut only and not that great speed. The only axe with decent reach is the fighting axe which is a total piece of shit in 1h mode. But despite all that.. I still love my Mighty Broad One Handed Battle Axe... even if I never use it because of the reach.

Offline Nightmare798

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2013, 11:06:01 AM »
-1
what makes axes iffy is the tiny reach, lack of stab, cut only and not that great speed. The only axe with decent reach is the fighting axe which is a total piece of shit in 1h mode. But despite all that.. I still love my Mighty Broad One Handed Battle Axe... even if I never use it because of the reach.

fighting axe has 84 reach, one handed war axe has about 71 reach [correct me if i am wrong]. speed is actually pretty decent, when you think about it, axe has similar balance to mace.

by definition, an axe should be weapon shorter than swords, slow, hard hitting, cheap [and they are cheap] and it should be good against shields .altho i feel this bonus is a bit too much, no real point in using sword anymore. guy with an axe can ruin your shield in few hits [even with 6 shield and knightly heater shield].
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Offline Paul

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2013, 09:21:07 AM »
+3
It's nice how people state their lobbying alignment in their avatar or signatur pics.

"I'm sword&board - nerf axes"

Offline MURDERTRON

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2013, 08:50:58 PM »
+1
Can't we all agree that 1h axes are all shit now that 1h got a lightsabre stab?
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Offline Nightmare798

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2013, 10:05:10 PM »
-1
It's nice how people state their lobbying alignment in their avatar or signatur pics.

"I'm sword&board - nerf axes"

i am not biased towards swords because i am sword and board, i am simply astonished that someone has balls to call one handed axes trash, considering their cost, damage and bonus against shields.

what are swords then, junk?
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Offline Nightmare798

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Re: All one handed axes are trash
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2013, 10:08:46 PM »
-1
Can't we all agree that 1h axes are all shit now that 1h got a lightsabre stab?

axemen knew what they are doing when they bought their weapons. they knew that there would be no stab. their weapons were also cheaper with lower upkeep.
i find it insulting that some people cry about axes being underpowered [they are not], when they dont have to pay 500-750 gold per round for upkeep.
Tseng: Used to the bitter taste of refusal, this only serves to reinforce his greatest life lession yet.
Cloud: And that is?
Tseng: Bitches, man.