Author Topic: Jesus fucking christ, I always knew that Turks were dumb, but NOT THAT DUMB!!!  (Read 3192 times)

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Offline HESKEYTIME

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Let's see, in a thread started by a Greek about Turks burning a French flag because they were mad at the Netherlands in which most of the posters are non-American Heskey takes the obligatory, gratuitous swipe at Americans.  That's true pathology.  What a cock.

Since your country is the only one I can think of that worships their flag and gets their kids to swear allegiance to it every day, your country is the one I used as an example. Give me another country that does it and they'll be my new example. Nothing personal.

I don't see how electing an inexperienced, unqualified reality tv star with serious psychological issues as POTUS can be explained as anything but plebs being really dumb

Depends which narrative you subscribe to, which 50% you choose to ignore with regards Trump + Brexit.

One narrative will tell you that 2016 is a social movement, that Trump + Brexit won and this is a social trend that will continue. That 51% voting pro Brexit and 49% voting pro Trump suggest that this is the will of the people. But looking at those margins, how you could you actively predict an outcome to within 1%? With 50/50 chance on a coinflip you can still flip 2 heads in a row after all, but average it out after 10 flips? You can never predict the next flip if things remain at 50/50, but you can predict the dynamic stalemate between the two outcomes over a larger period.

Maybe it's feasible that the real social movement is the 2 narratives squaring off to form this kind of wonderful dynamic stalemate. As long as votes like these hinge on a 1% swing in either direction before being accepted as the absolute majority, then the outcome will be effectively random and impossible to predict. 1%? That's small enough for the 'how do I feel on the day?' voters to change the outcome. Still preferable over a scenario where we require all votes to be decided by a larger margin, otherwise nothing would ever happen at this point and we'd be in a static stalemate.

Here's where I try to tenuously bring this back to the discussion. When someone talks about preserving their country's culture, at least 50% of your own country is guaranteed to disagree with you even over what exactly that culture is or should be. Get rid of these "Christian ideas gone mad", but wasn't most of the west very strongly Christian until the last 100 years? So you want to save your 'culture' (which is entirely subjective), but not the culture you had over the last thousand+ years, only the bits you personally want. A claim like 'we'll lose our culture'... you think you'll ever reach a time where 100% of a country will agree 'yep, it's dead' or 100% will ever agree 'yes, our culture's in a really good place right now' even if no one ever migrated to your country ever? It's a non-argument, one that you cant measure or prove since it's how one person has idealised one country in their own mind, in a way they've probably never experienced. And guess what, a country has a lot of people in it and each person has their own idea of what their 'culture' is. Any discussion of 'saving your culture' will be in direct opposition to the half of your country that disagrees, trying to 'save' them against their will, and they will *not* appreciate being 'saved' in such a way.

I don't have lofty views of removing 'tribalism' and creating a world without borders. Our tendency towards small communities of people we recognise as our own is too strong, and imo fuelled a lot of the Brexit and Trump backlash. I see the sanity in wanting to retreat back into your corner and protect your own. But really, a country's too big for that. What, someone drew a border around some King's lands hundreds of years ago and it's just Gospel truth that those are *your* people forever? That's *your* culture now and forever ignoring all history before that point and everything that's happened since? Fuck no. If you're concerned about looking after your own, defending your own corner, look closer to the people that actually matter and want to cooperate with you.
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Offline Molly

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Offline Havelle Registered Voter

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I'm pretty fond of the American Rural-Urban divide narrative. The idea that the big cultural differences in America aren't a regional or state difference, but you know, urban and rural.

Its also pretty tough to for the left to get their fair say in elections with gerrymandering and voter suppression laws. And then when the left is in office, they face a much more unified, aggressive party bent on making the government not function properly because government you know government is inherently evil. We're kind of like limp noodle nice guy man-bundle of stickss.

America was sort of built on making the culture war a state issue, but again, that leaves a lot of voter power in the people who live outside of cities. This hurts smaller cities, larger cities are effectively given the power to do whatever they want since they have the voting power to sway Governor elections, while smaller cities don't get the same luxury.
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Offline HESKEYTIME

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I'm pretty fond of the American Rural-Urban divide narrative. The idea that the big cultural differences in America aren't a regional or state difference, but you know, urban and rural.

Its also pretty tough to for the left to get their fair say in elections with gerrymandering and voter suppression laws. And then when the left is in office, they face a much more unified, aggressive party bent on making the government not function properly because government you know government is inherently evil. We're kind of like limp noodle nice guy man-bundle of stickss.

America was sort of built on making the culture war a state issue, but again, that leaves a lot of voter power in the people who live outside of cities. This hurts smaller cities, larger cities are effectively given the power to do whatever they want since they have the voting power to sway Governor elections, while smaller cities don't get the same luxury.

For some reason age division in voting annoys me more than regional divides (which make me sympathise with Scotland) or the urban/rural divide.

An aging population has already made it's mark. Over 50s do vote more conservatively, and they make up a bigger % of the population than before. Add to that the fact that this demographic has a far better turnout than younger age ranges (which is the fault of 'younger voters' as a category, but there's little an individual under-50 who does vote can do about that) and as a result they get a very big say. All of this is still democratic - though IMO we'd know a lot better what 'the people' want, if they all voted.

What follows is less democratic, will probably piss some people off, and is my honest opinion. Some topics are genuinely more important to different age groups than others. A vote on state pensions? I think the votes of over 40s matter more. A vote on possible freedom to study/work in other countries in the next 10 years? I think the votes of over 50s should matter less. A hot topic in the Scottish referendum was state pensions as an independent Scotland couldn't guarantee one would be provided, the vote to remain was carried by older voters with young voters being largely leave, 'good'. The Brexit vote was also carried by older voters with young voters being largely remain, and concerned the economy and prospects of working people X years hence as leaving was always to be a controlled process over years, arguably less 'good' but still democratic.

It's why I have a hard time seeing this as the wave of the future, the downtrodden classes rising up etc. The young firebrands are predominantly voting the other way, the increasingly-large 50+ demographic that has a higher voter turnout is the one that carries these votes and that's regardless of whether the issues being raised are pensions or freedom to study/work abroad.
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Offline Xant

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All these walls of text by Oberyn and Heskeytime about nationalism/religion... it's just like old times... I'm home....

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All these walls of text by Oberyn and Heskeytime about nationalism/religion... it's just like old times... I'm home....

Now all we need is you disagreeing with everyone and getting into arguments that go nowhere : )
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Now all we need is you disagreeing with everyone and getting into arguments that go nowhere : )

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Offline Xant

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Now all we need is you disagreeing with everyone and getting into arguments that go nowhere : )
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Offline Havelle Registered Voter

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Britain's grumpy old men once again rule the day. I'm not too read on the conditions surrounding Brexit, although a friend living in England told me it was almost entirely fueled by nationalistic stupidity and xenophobia. I'd love to hear some more of your thoughts on Brexit.

Anecdotally: On the whole, I don't really notice the age divide. I'm involved with my local party, and its pretty much all old white men with progressive leanings(even if its things like "let the fags get married"). Young people don't get out to vote much, but I notice a lot of my peers tend to lean right. Hell there's barely even a Republican party here, except for judiciary positions which Repubs always dominate. On election days, the Repubs have one little table with one little old lady with one little binder. Locally, the more pronounced divide I see is a class divide, young frustrated working class kids scapegoating Mexicans(9% Hispanic/Latino population) for lack of jobs and worried about losing their guns, despite our city being depressed since the coal mining busted in the '60s. Ironically, older folks tend to vote liberal, our younger folks adopting a gruff working class masculinity and accompanying conservatism in a city with a bar and a church on every block. An aside, If you want to see a classic Scrantonian, look no further than Joe Biden. Dude is Scranton to the fucking bone.

Although our neighboring city&county, which together as a whole and by the power of Greyskull basically makes up the entire and only metropolitan area these parts of Pennsylvania swung Repub this election.

Now, we're also a college town, so take a trip to any campus and you'll find a treasure trove of young progressives praising FDR(RIP).

I'd have to do some reading to see whether or not we have the same issues with the age divide here in broader America(something tells me with all these leftover hippies, we don't). But I want to come back to this at some point to completely derail the thread again, comrade Heskeytime.
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Offline Vibe

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All these walls of text by Oberyn and Heskeytime about nationalism/religion... it's just like old times... I'm home....

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welcome back to the hood brotha xant

Offline HESKEYTIME

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Britain's grumpy old men once again rule the day. I'm not too read on the conditions surrounding Brexit, although a friend living in England told me it was almost entirely fueled by nationalistic stupidity and xenophobia. I'd love to hear some more of your thoughts on Brexit.

Anecdotally: On the whole, I don't really notice the age divide. I'm involved with my local party, and its pretty much all old white men with progressive leanings(even if its things like "let the fags get married"). Young people don't get out to vote much, but I notice a lot of my peers tend to lean right. Hell there's barely even a Republican party here, except for judiciary positions which Repubs always dominate. On election days, the Repubs have one little table with one little old lady with one little binder. Locally, the more pronounced divide I see is a class divide, young frustrated working class kids scapegoating Mexicans(9% Hispanic/Latino population) for lack of jobs and worried about losing their guns, despite our city being depressed since the coal mining busted in the '60s. Ironically, older folks tend to vote liberal, our younger folks adopting a gruff working class masculinity and accompanying conservatism in a city with a bar and a church on every block. An aside, If you want to see a classic Scrantonian, look no further than Joe Biden. Dude is Scranton to the fucking bone.

Although our neighboring city&county, which together as a whole and by the power of Greyskull basically makes up the entire and only metropolitan area these parts of Pennsylvania swung Repub this election.

Now, we're also a college town, so take a trip to any campus and you'll find a treasure trove of young progressives praising FDR(RIP).

I'd have to do some reading to see whether or not we have the same issues with the age divide here in broader America(something tells me with all these leftover hippies, we don't). But I want to come back to this at some point to completely derail the thread again, comrade Heskeytime.

At a glance:
"young voters (ages 18-29)... preferred Clinton over Trump by a wide 55%-37% margin"
"Older voters (ages 65 and older) preferred Trump over Clinton 53%-45%"


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

Despite the fairly large Democrat-leaning of the younger voters, it was smaller than during Obama's elections (cos it's Hillary). And as stated in my last wall of text, the over 65 demographic is responsible for a larger share of the vote than the 18-29 voters that always have one of the lowest turnouts.

But national trends like these mean nothing to the individual or the town or the county. In your town every single 18-29 yr-old could still comfortably fit within the 37% of their demographic that voted Trump. Threads like these exist to be derailed, OP was good for a chuckle but there's really nowhere to go with it.
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Offline Oberyn

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But national trends like these mean nothing to the individual or the town or the county. In your town every single 18-29 yr-old could still comfortably fit within the 37% of their demographic that voted Trump. Threads like these exist to be derailed, OP was good for a chuckle but there's really nowhere to go with it.

Exactly, they don't. Won't stop people like you or Havelle blaming it on all those old farts though. Good job for having learned absolutely nothing. If you think the majority of youth share your self-destructive ideology, you haven't been paying attention. There's also the well known phenomenon of people's political positions evolving over time, but ignore it, it's all good, the answer if just to wait until your "progressive" mores become the status quo, even more than they already are.

Your perspective on democracy is frankly dystopian, and you arrived at it entirely because of a single referendum that was won by your ideological opposition. Yeah I can totally see how you love your culture and country so much, if thats all it takes for you to suddenly see the problem with democracy. Is everything going to be "lol it's the old white people" whenever things turn against you politically? Probably. Hey, let's make it so people with children have more of a voice than people without. Their perspective is clearly more important since they have more at stake. Also let's make people's votes who went through military service having more weight, clearly they deserve it for sacrificing so much for the collective. Etc, etc. Not abhorent or insane at all, not spitting all over centuries of political tradition arrived at through trial and error, just a logical position right? Of course those particular "logical" things don't bring much to the table as far as pushing your political perspective, so it's probably wrong.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 11:41:49 AM by Oberyn »

Offline HESKEYTIME

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Exactly, they don't. Won't stop people like you or Havelle blaming it on all those old farts though. Good job for having learned absolutely nothing. If you think the majority of youth share your self-destructive ideology, you haven't been paying attention. There's also the well known phenomenon of people's political positions evolving over time, but ignore it, it's all good, the answer if just to wait until your "progressive" mores become the status quo, even more than they already are.

Erm, that's exactly what national trends do show. They show majorities.

If the stats from an election show 37% of 18-29yr olds voted Trump, then a majority of 'youth' share my 'self-destructive' ideology. But means nothing to the individual, it doesn't prescribe for example that *all* 18-29yr olds are anti-Trump, but it does tell you what the majority think in that bracket - sorry to shit on your narrative. You may choose to ignore the stats that don't fit your narrative, stick your head in the sand and still pretend this is the winds of change because 37% of young people in America might think like you, but to claim it's the majority is where you fucked up your argument.

You seem to have a problem separating the individuals from the stats, since you pluck the idea that a majority of young people share your values out of thin air in the face of stats showing that the majority of young people don't share yours. Gut feeling?

Your perspective on democracy is that you are happy to ignore what the actual majority of people think, ignore all the numbers, and focus purely on what your gut feeling tells you. You want to believe that the young generation are rising up against liberalism, sure, just ignore all the real-world data that tells you you're dreaming. You're the type of person that sees a single coin-flip land on heads and gets all excited about this long foretold 'heads' uprising, the end of all tails, no coins will ever land on tails ever again because you've seen with your own eyes that all coin flips... oh... the next one was tails. Oh, Trump won the election, that means everyone's going conservative forever. Oh, some Turks burn a flag, that means all Turks hate the west forever.
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Offline Oberyn

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Here's where I try to tenuously bring this back to the discussion. When someone talks about preserving their country's culture, at least 50% of your own country is guaranteed to disagree with you even over what exactly that culture is or should be. Get rid of these "Christian ideas gone mad", but wasn't most of the west very strongly Christian until the last 100 years? So you want to save your 'culture' (which is entirely subjective), but not the culture you had over the last thousand+ years, only the bits you personally want. A claim like 'we'll lose our culture'... you think you'll ever reach a time where 100% of a country will agree 'yep, it's dead' or 100% will ever agree 'yes, our culture's in a really good place right now' even if no one ever migrated to your country ever? It's a non-argument, one that you cant measure or prove since it's how one person has idealised one country in their own mind, in a way they've probably never experienced. And guess what, a country has a lot of people in it and each person has their own idea of what their 'culture' is. Any discussion of 'saving your culture' will be in direct opposition to the half of your country that disagrees, trying to 'save' them against their will, and they will *not* appreciate being 'saved' in such a way.

"Christian ideas gone mad" isn't a dig on christianity, it's a dig on the practically theological basis of postmodern, marxist, anti-occidental dogmatism. Exemplified so nicely in your bolded moral relativistism. Your strawman is retarded, I'm not interested in bringing back Feudalism either, does that make me a hypocrite for speaking of a french culture? It's very simple, I'm pro Enlightenment ideals, it's not a "subjective" idea, it's an objective and well defined group of mores and ideological positions, one that is under attack because of a disgustingly distorted historical perspective promoted by people who think very like you, in the highest positions of power and influence. The irony of people like you ranting that trying to "save" people against their will is counterproductive is hilarious.