Author Topic: Game mechanic megathread!  (Read 65117 times)

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Offline Elmokki

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2012, 12:48:30 PM »
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Added crossbow shield penetration mechanic. It was mentioned somewhere so I dug the forums for the formula.

Also added WaltF4's post before as a direct quotation.

Offline RamsesXXIIX

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2012, 11:04:49 AM »
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I'm not sure if this has been addressed, bear over with me if it has:

I asked Paul about speedbonus for ranged, after I read the Warband manual and there seemed to be a confliction. Here's the message:

The manual is wrong. Cmp got the speed bonus code and motivated by my previous tests that suggested a fuck up, we found the part where it fucks up.

Code: [Select]
            if missile:
                    missile_speed_vec = missile.get_direction()
                   
                    if (receiver_agent_no >= 0):
                            missile_speed_len = (receiver_speed_vec - missile_speed_vec).length() # sqrt(x²+y²+z²)
                    else:
                            missile_speed_len = missile_speed_vec.length()
                   
                    damage = pow(missile_speed_len / missile.speed, module_settings.missile_damage_speed_power) * missile.damage * attack_rec.unknown_value
           

This is the code for the speed bonus for projectiles. The problem is the last line.
It basicly should be damage =  (combined_impact_speed / starting_speed ) ^ missile_damage_speed_power * damage

Important here is that starting_speed should be the normal speed of the projectile if thrown from a standing position. Purpose of the speed bonus thingy is in the end to compare combined impact speed(which includes movement speed of the thrower at the beginning of the throw, friction&gravity loss/gain and relative movement speed of the target) with the normal throwing speed at point blank.

Should it be that the projectile is half as fast as normally because of whatever reason(friction, throwing upwards, target running away) then damage should be about quartered. If double speed on impact, damage is about multiplied by 4. The speed bonus thingy reflects the kinetic energy concept(Ekin = 1/2 m * v^2) with its square relation between speed and energy, although not exactly because missile_damage_speed_power is 1.9 in the module.ini and not 2.

So if I throw at someone right in front of me I should do 100% normal damage if thrower and target have both the same relative speed. This is where it fucks up. starting_speed in the code is DOES include the movement speed of the thrower at the beginning of the throw because they it is easier to do code wise. And this make the damage behave physically incorrect.

Example:
Lets say thrower and target are so close to each other and at the same height level that friction loss and gravitational gain/loss for the projectile speed are neglectible. With that only the relative speed should have an impact on damage.

final_damage = damage gain * damage =(combined_impact_speed / starting_speed) ^ 1.9 * damage
damage_gain = (combined_impact_speed / starting_speed) ^ 1.9 = ((v_missile+v0_thrower+v_target)/v_missile)^1.9

v_missile is the velocity of the missile only depending on power throw and the item stat of the weapon. It is constant if we assume the no friction and gravity loss&gain thingy.v0_thrower is the movement speed of the thrower when he throws and v_target is the movement speed of the target. Let's assume all speed vectors have the same direction to be able to use them as scalars.

Should be(real world):
damage_gain_rw = (combined_impact_speed / starting_speed) ^ 1.9 = ((v_missile+v0_thrower+v_target)/v_missile)^1.9

Done in code(Warband):
damage_gain_wb = ((v_missile+v0_thrower+v_target)/(v_missile+v0_thrower))^1.9

Case 1: Target and thrower do not move.
damage_gain_rl =  ((v_missile+0+0)/v_missile)^1.9=1
damage_gain_wb =  ((v_missile+0+0)/(v_missile + 0))^1.9=1

No damage gain or loss in both cases.

Case 2: Target is moving towards the thrower at missile speed(v_target = v_missile). Thrower is not moving.
damage_gain_rl =  ((v_missile+0+v_missile)/v_missile)^1.9=2^1.9= 3.7
damage_gain_wb =  ((v_missile+0+v_missile)/(v_missile + 0))^1.9= 3.7

Almost quadrupled damage in both cases. No problem.

Case 3: Thrower is moving at missile speed(v0_thrower=v_missile) towards the target during the throw. Target is not moving.

damage_gain_rl =  ((v_missile+v_missile+0)/v_missile)^1.9=2^1.9= 3.7
damage_gain_wb = ((v_missile+v_missile+0)/(v_missile + v_missile))=1.9= 1^1.9=1

Here the problem shows for the first time. While in real life the damage should be about quadrupled in Warband it is the same as if the thrower is not moving.

Case 4: Mounted thrower is moving at half missile speed AWAY from the target(v0_thrower=-v_missile/2). Target is chasing the thrower on horseback also with half missile_speed(v0_thrower=v_missile/2).

damage_gain_rl =  ((v_missile-v_missile/2+v_missile/2)/v_missile)^1.9=1^1.9= 1
damage_gain_wb = ((v_missile-v_missile/2+v_missile/2)/(v_missile - v_missile/2))^1.9=(v_missile/(v_missile/2))^1.9=2^1.9=3.7

This is the biggest fuckup. While of course logic tells us that if thrower and chaser move at the same speed the damage should be normal too, it's different in Warband. There you can get a big damage bonus thanks to the nature of the implementation.

Cmp too lazy to fix though.


TL:DR: fucked up code on speedbonus for ranged, as such you get a bonus to damage if your enemy is moving towards you, and a negative to damage if they are moving away from you, regardless of your own movement.

Offline KaffeKalle

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2012, 07:46:00 PM »
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If someone could explain the mechanics behind instaswitching weapons, and the whole "kick, swing, parry"-moves Ive seen people do that would be appreciated. Cause I can kick, swing, but kicking, swinging and parrying in one move seems to me like something undoable. Also the guys able to switch weapons and parrying instantly must be doing something other than using mousewheel to switch, cause when I do that there is a 1s delay or so before I can use the new item for parrying....

Offline Ronin

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2012, 11:40:52 AM »
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Maybe it's numpad keys? Maybe it's a bug, or they just act fast somehow.

Quote
Following is at 20 base damage:
- Pierce is about 10% weaker than blunt from 20 to 30 armor.
- Pierce is about 20% weaker than blunt from 35 to 40 armor.
- Pierce is about 15% weaker than blunt from 45 to 55 armor.
- After that the difference in damage jumps around between 25% and 67% depending on rounding, but in general the damage amounts for both weapons are ridiculously low already.
Is this correct? Cause, as I know blunt uses %25 armor ignore and pierce uses %50 armor ignore for some other mods. Also, there is a military hammer secondary mode. The blunt mode has more damage (blunt) and speed while the pierce is lesser damage and speed. It seems totally useless now.
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Offline Elmokki

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2012, 12:26:33 PM »
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Is this correct? Cause, as I know blunt uses %25 armor ignore and pierce uses %50 armor ignore for some other mods. Also, there is a military hammer secondary mode. The blunt mode has more damage (blunt) and speed while the pierce is lesser damage and speed. It seems totally useless now.

Play with the damage calculator yourself since now it uses up to date formulas to see how it goes. I also had a thread a while back which examined secondary damage modes and found pretty much all of those utterly useless apart from poleaxe (which honestly had a VERY niche use anyway)

Pierce and blunt have their strengths in different areas and are both considerably better than cut, but unless you can reach really high damage amounts, blunt will beat pierce or at the very least be equivalent. We're talking about high strength build archers or polearms here, other than that exactly same amount of blunt as pierce is better.

High speed bonuses can affect this obviously too though.

Offline Alahel

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2012, 03:16:32 PM »
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Really I dont understand system damage. It is absurd Why the archers do more damage than xbowmen?

For example

- I shoot a guy with red tunic, he said that he had 0 ironflesh, well. I have a heavyxbow + masterwork bolts 69+11 =80 My shoot hit him in his chest, Why didnt die?

After I have 40 of armour and some archers with one arrow they take hp 90-95%...
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 05:07:28 PM by Alahel »

Offline Elmokki

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2012, 12:01:34 AM »
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Arbalest with loomed bolts should be able to do 90p or so at point blank range, being a guaranteed. You should be able to sometimes oneshot 40 armor people (not sure about hitboxes now) depending on if they have IF and how lucky you are with dice rolls (52 to 70 raw damage). Air friction lessens this A LOT though so at range it doesn't work and speed bonuses affect it a lot too, so it can change it considerably too. Not to mention head shots.

Crossbows and Bows have the same damage mechanics after the raw damage has been calculated, so against 40 armor we assume arbalester can do 90p at point blank. Long bow is 34p loomed, Rus bow 31p. Bodkins give 3 additional pierce, or alternatively damage type can be cut with tatars bringing it to +7 damage, but cut.

So we're looking at 41c or 37p before modifiers. Crossbows aren't affected by any player attributes, bows are. At a bow build of 21/21 or something similiar you can get your damage close, but you've also sacrificed mobility, melee capability and some accurace in your pursuit for damage. An average archer has absolutely no way of doing more damage than an arbalest on one shot - you need a very specialized build for it as opposed to arbalest users being able to have decent melee stats and good mobility.

Now, normal crossbow can do 66p fully loomed with fully loomed bolts. That's not that hard to surpass with a bow at all, but regardless compared to your investment of a couple of WM points the archer will need at minimum 5 points in power draw and additional points in weapon master due to power draw reducing wpf by 14 per point.

So, basically, if you are using normal crossbow, too bad, you aren't a proper crossbowman. If you're using an arbalest your burst damage is better. Speed bonuses, hitboxes and range play considerable roles in damage though, which can be a boon to archers. Super slow arbalest suffers a lot from a miss.

In terms of damage per seconds bows will win hands down obviously.

Play with http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm to see what damage what does before speed bonuses, hitboxes, hold bonus and air friction.

Offline Alahel

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2012, 02:05:43 AM »
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Yes,  the theory I know it. Then... You are saying the only xbow it is useful is arbalest, it cost 18K when best bow cost 9000.

Well damage calculator says the reality. I shoot a 10 meters a archer with red tunic like I  said before. But he didnt die. The damage calculator

    Minimum: 73
    Average: 74.5
    Maximum: 76

I doubt his hp would be more than 73.

Thank you Elmokki

Offline Elmokki

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2012, 04:03:15 PM »
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Yes,  the theory I know it. Then... You are saying the only xbow it is useful is arbalest, it cost 18K when best bow cost 9000.

Well damage calculator says the reality. I shoot a 10 meters a archer with red tunic like I  said before. But he didnt die. The damage calculator

    Minimum: 73
    Average: 74.5
    Maximum: 76

I doubt his hp would be more than 73.

Thank you Elmokki

Speed bonuses.

Also I do not know what the hitbox damages for ranged are now. They were REALLY low for chest for a patch but were buffed, not sure what they are at right now, but it might give a 0.9 or some multi to it.

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2012, 01:24:35 AM »
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Great thread! It's a shame that the depth and documentation of warband/crpg requires you study it in a statistically significant way, but with a resource like this no one has an excuse not to know it all  :D.

Offline ammeron

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2012, 04:10:46 AM »
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The right damage calculation for archery is;

Code: [Select]
raw_damage = (bow_damage + arrow_damage) * (archery_wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * (min(power_draw, difficulty + 4) * 0.14 + 1) + strength / 5.0
I show you an example with my build;

(34 + 2) * (159 * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * (10 * 0.14 + 1) + 30 / 5.0 = 100.176p

except ur wpf isnt 159, if u subtract 140 from ur PD reduction to effective wpf, then u have to do the math with only 19wpf, witch gives u like 82 pierce not 100

Offline Elmokki

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2012, 10:09:29 AM »
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except ur wpf isnt 159, if u subtract 140 from ur PD reduction to effective wpf, then u have to do the math with only 19wpf, witch gives u like 82 pierce not 100

As has been said before, there's no info on wether the effective wpf effects damage or just accuracy. I personally assume it affects damage and find it to make sense and thus the thread assumes it's so, but it's entirely possible PD/Armor won't affect damage.

Offline Alahel

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2012, 04:15:27 PM »
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Elmooki

Why Have i dead in hands of xbowmen with arbalest one shot? I have 31 of armour, it is few, but like I have said before in my example...

Offline Elmokki

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2012, 04:38:45 PM »
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Elmooki

Why Have i dead in hands of xbowmen with arbalest one shot? I have 31 of armour, it is few, but like I have said before in my example...

60-74 damage before speed bonus. 0 to like 150 after. Even with small hitbox reduction that's enough to oneshot people.

Offline Jarlek

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Re: Game mechanic megathread!
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2012, 04:26:28 AM »
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Bumpo?
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