Hey guys.

I don't know most formulas and I'm not a game mechanics guru, but I was decided after patch 0.4.0.0 to understand a few of those mechanics.

I was trying to make sense of the Armor Weight / Strength / IF / WPF relationship. This may be old news to most of you, but in the process I've come up with a few tables, and I think those tables helped me a great deal to visualize some of the stuff happening. I find those tables quite useful, so I'll post them here, hoping that some of you may find them useful also

Note : most values and conclusions here are drawn from the current Character planner (

http://tinyurl.com/crpgcalc), which I assume is up to date.

First, a recap. The weight of all armor pieces your character wears negatively impacts your WPF. This impact can be really significant.

For the purpose of moving speed calculations, weight of feet, body, hand and head armour are added up equally to the total weight you carry. This is

*not so* when it comes to WPF penalties.

Inside WPF penalty formula, Body Armour weight and Feet Armour weight have the same influence ; but Head Armour weight is twice as severe, and Glove Armor weight

*six times* as severe (contrary to the factor of 4 pre-patch, as written by the OP).

=> Pondered Armor Weight (PAW) = BodyWeight + FeetWeight + (HelmetWeight * 2) + (GloveWeight * 6)

Once you know PAW, you may start having an idea of the WPF penalty. At 6 PAW and below, there is none. After that, as a rule of thumb, the base penalty (BP) starts growing 1:1 along with the PAW, then quickly tends to asymptotically follow a 1.75 BP increase per PAW point.

I haven't been able to deduce the exact forumla, but below is an empirical plot of the PAW-to-BP relation : X-axis is the Pondered Armor Weight, Y-axis is the Base Penalty :

visitors can't see pics , please

register or

login(Using current gear, max body + feet weight is around 32, max glove weight is 2, max helmet weight is 4 => max PAW is around 52)

The exact value of Base Penalty BP is applied as is,

*as a percentage penalty*, to the WPF of any ranged weapon (throwing, crossbow, bow). A Base Penalty of 30 thus means 30% penalty to your WPF in, say, throwing weapons. That is, 45 points penalty if you had invested 150 points in it, leaving you with 105 effective WPF.

For melee weapons, the WPF percentage penalty is two thirds of the Base Penalty. Taking the same example of BP 30, that is 20% penalty on 150 invested WPF, which means 30 points are subtracted from it, leaving you with 120 effective WPF.

Things look bad for armor, heh ? Well, not hopelessly bad. Above 15 strength, you character starts to mitigate some of those penalties. At 4 IF and higher also. IF influence and strength influence are not cumulative, though. Whichever has most impact is used. 4 IF has same impact than 21 strength, after that each IF point is as good as 6 more strength. The remaining of this post will show a few simulations of this effect.

Note : I guess the true formula integrates oddities such as

**caps**, min and maxes stuff based on str and IF directly inside it, and live happily ever after without even the slightest notion of a "Base Penalty". But hey, modeled that way, those results do hold in fact, and I find it much simpler to think about it.

Armor weight : 37.1 ; Pondered Armor Weight : 50.9 ; Base Penalty : 70.9

WPF percentage penalties based on strength and IF :

| Ranged | | Melee | |.............. | With nothing-in-hand* | | Running Speed* |

15 str or below, less than 4 IF : | 70.9% | 47.3% | | | Agi 3, Ath 1 : | 67% |

With 18 str : | 69.1% | 46.1% | | | Agi 6, Ath 2 : | 69% |

With 21 str or 4 IF : | 67.4% | 44.9% | | | Agi 9, Ath 3 : | 71% |

With 24 str : | 65.6% | 43.7% | | | Agi 12, Ath 4 : | 73% |

With 27 str or 5 IF : | 63.8% | 42.5% | | | Agi 15, Ath 5 : | 75% |

With 30 str : | 62.1% | 41.4% | | | Agi 18, Ath 6 : | 77% |

With 33 str or 6 IF : | 60.4% | 40.3% | | | Agi 21, Ath 7 : | 79% |

With 36 str : | 58.6% | 39.1% | | | Agi 24, Ath 8 : | 81% |

With 39 str or 7 IF : | 56.9% | 37.9% | | | Agi 27, Ath 9 : | 83% |

With 8 IF : | 53.5% | 35.7% |

With 9 IF : | 50.0% | 33.3% |

With 10 IF : | 46.6% | 31.1% |

With 11 IF : | 43.3% | 28.9% |

With 12 IF : | 39.9% | 26.6% |

With 13 IF : | 36.6% | 24.4% |

Which gives us the first rule : "Thou shall

**nevah** play ranged under a full pile of steel, when not blessed by Heracles"

The second rule being : "Thou shall avoid playing melee under same pile, if thou are less than a colossus (unless thou feel naught but contempt for melee WPF)."

And a third rule : "Thou shall

**NOT** reply to this post just to point out that a 15-strength character ain't able to wear that gear (unless thou feel trolley)."

Armor weight : 29.7 ; Pondered Armor Weight : 39.7 ; Base Penalty : 51.4

WPF percentage penalties based on strength and IF :

| Ranged | | Melee | |.............. | With nothing-in-hand* | | Running Speed* |

15 str or below, less than 4 IF : | 51.4% | 34.3% | | | Agi 3, Ath 1 : | 68% |

With 18 str : | 49.7% | 33.1% | | | Agi 6, Ath 2 : | 70% |

With 21 str or 4 IF : | 48.0% | 32.0% | | | Agi 9, Ath 3 : | 73% |

With 24 str : | 46.3% | 30.9% | | | Agi 12, Ath 4 : | 75% |

With 27 str or 5 IF : | 44.6% | 29.7% | | | Agi 15, Ath 5 : | 77% |

With 30 str : | 42.9% | 28.6% | | | Agi 18, Ath 6 : | 79% |

With 33 str or 6 IF : | 41.3% | 27.5% | | | Agi 21, Ath 7 : | 81% |

With 36 str : | 39.6% | 26.4% | | | Agi 24, Ath 8 : | 83% |

With 39 str or 7 IF : | 37.9% | 25.3% | | | Agi 27, Ath 9 : | 85% |

With 8 IF : | 34.7% | 23.1% |

With 9 IF : | 31.4% | 20.9% |

With 10 IF : | 28.2% | 18.8% |

With 11 IF : | 25.0% | 16.7% |

With 12 IF : | 21.8% | 14.5% |

With 13 IF : | 18.8% | 12.5% |

Armor weight : 22.5 ; Pondered Armor Weight : 32.5 ; Base Penalty : 39.3

WPF percentage penalties based on strength and IF :

| Ranged | | Melee | |.............. | With nothing-in-hand* | | Running Speed* |

15 str or below, less than 4 IF : | 39.3% | 26.2% | | | Agi 3, Ath 1 : | 69% |

With 18 str : | 37.6% | 25.1% | | | Agi 6, Ath 2 : | 71% |

With 21 str or 4 IF : | 36.0% | 24.0% | | | Agi 9, Ath 3 : | 74% |

With 24 str : | 34.3% | 22.9% | | | Agi 12, Ath 4 : | 76% |

With 27 str or 5 IF : | 32.7% | 21.8% | | | Agi 15, Ath 5 : | 78% |

With 30 str : | 31.1% | 20.7% | | | Agi 18, Ath 6 : | 80% |

With 33 str or 6 IF : | 29.5% | 19.7% | | | Agi 21, Ath 7 : | 83% |

With 36 str : | 27.9% | 18.6% | | | Agi 24, Ath 8 : | 85% |

With 39 str or 7 IF : | 26.3% | 17.5% | | | Agi 27, Ath 9 : | 87% |

With 8 IF : | 23.1% | 15.4% |

With 9 IF : | 20.0% | 13.3% |

With 10 IF : | 16.9% | 11.3% |

With 11 IF : | 13.9% | 09.3% |

With 12 IF : | 11.0% | 07.3% |

With 13 IF : | 08.8% | 05.4% |

Armor weight : 14.4 ; Pondered Armor Weight : 22.1 ; Base Penalty : 22.5

WPF percentage penalties based on strength and IF :

| Ranged | | Melee | |.............. | With nothing-in-hand* | | Running Speed* |

15 str or below, less than 4 IF : | 22.5% | 15.0% | | | Agi 3, Ath 1 : | 70% |

With 18 str : | 20.9% | 13.9% | | | Agi 6, Ath 2 : | 73% |

With 21 str or 4 IF : | 19.4% | 12.9% | | | Agi 9, Ath 3 : | 75% |

With 24 str : | 17.8% | 11.9% | | | Agi 12, Ath 4 : | 78% |

With 27 str or 5 IF : | 16.3% | 10.9% | | | Agi 15, Ath 5 : | 80% |

With 30 str : | 14.8% | 09.9% | | | Agi 18, Ath 6 : | 83% |

With 33 str or 6 IF : | 13.3% | 08.9% | | | Agi 21, Ath 7 : | 85% |

With 36 str : | 11.9% | 07.9% | | | Agi 24, Ath 8 : | 88% |

With 39 str or 7 IF : | 10.4% | 06.9% | | | Agi 27, Ath 9 : | 90% |

With 8 IF : | 07.6% | 05.1% |

With 9 IF : | 04.9% | 03.3% |

With 10 IF : | 02.3% | 01.5% |

With 11 IF or more : | negl. | negl. |

Armor weight : 8.9 ; Pondered Armor Weight : 11.3 ; Base Penalty : 8.4

WPF percentage penalties based on strength and IF :

| Ranged | | Melee | |.............. | With nothing-in-hand* | | Running Speed* |

15 str or below, less than 4 IF : | 08.4% | 05.6% | | | Agi 3, Ath 1 : | 71% |

With 18 str : | 07.0% | 04.7% | | | Agi 6, Ath 2 : | 74% |

With 21 str or 4 IF : | 05.7% | 03.8% | | | Agi 9, Ath 3 : | 77% |

With 24 str : | 04.3% | 02.9% | | | Agi 12, Ath 4 : | 80% |

With 27 str or 5 IF : | 03.0% | 02.0% | | | Agi 15, Ath 5 : | 83% |

With 30 str : | 01.8% | 01.2% | | | Agi 18, Ath 6 : | 85% |

With 33 str or 6 IF : | 00.7% | 00.5% | | | Agi 21, Ath 7 : | 88% |

With 36 str or 7 IF: | negl. | negl. | | | Agi 24, Ath 8 : | 91% |

| | | | | Agi 27, Ath 9 : | 93% |

That's it for the tables. Now, what does it tell us ?

First, one could ask if that factor of 6 for gloves makes gloves efficient at all for improving body armor, in a WPF standpoint, as compared to a heavier chest armor.

Short answer : [edit, corrected conclusions] when loomed and used together with a hard chest armor, most of the time, yes still.

Most hard (mail or above) gloves give slightly less than a 1:1 armor increase per Pondered Armor Weight increase. This ratio is equal or better to the derivative of the Chest Armor graph only on the far right, heavy side of the curve. But when loomed, this ratio for gloves really gets okay, as one can see in the graphs below (Where X-Axis is Pondered Armor Weight and Y-Axis is armor value. Unloomed in blue, Max heirloom level in red) :

Best Body Armour from lowest weight on Gloves.

visitors can't see pics , please

register or

loginWearing unloomed leather gloves is almost always a bad idea for your WPF as soon as you reach 6 PAW, though.

Best Body Armour from lowest weight on Chest Armors.

visitors can't see pics , please

register or

loginSo, the better ratio using loomed gloves stands true for most of the hard armors (around 9+) except across a gap around armors of 13-14 base weight, and another gap just above 20.

For the record, Best Head Armour from lowest weight on Helmets

visitors can't see pics , please

register or

loginOf course, from a movement speed standpoint, glove armor effectiveness still shines the most.

And from a cool skin standpoint, then by all means, do as you wish

Since being even moderately armored means that strength has also an impact on WPF, what to increase most if you want to max out WPF ? Strength or Agility ?

3 Agi 1WM makes a single WPF to 45. err... let's start with that, now, shall we ?

Going to 6 Agi 2WM makes a single WPF to 76. A 31 base WPF increase.

Going to 9 Agi 3WM makes a single WPF to 100. A 24 base WPF increase.

Going to 12 Agi 4WM makes a single WPF to 121. A 21 base WPF increase.

Going to 15 Agi 5WM makes a single WPF to 139. A 18 base WPF increase.

Going to 18 Agi 6WM makes a single WPF to 155. A 16 base WPF increase.

Going to 21 Agi 7WM makes a single WPF to 170. A 15 base WPF increase.

Going to 24 Agi 8WM makes a single WPF to 184. A 14 base WPF increase.

Going to 27 Agi 9WM makes a single WPF to 198. A 14 base WPF increase.

Going to 30 Agi 10WM makes a single WPF to 210. A 12 base WPF increase.

Going to 33 Agi 11WM makes a single WPF to 223. A 13 base WPF increase.

Going to 36 Agi 12WM makes a single WPF to 234. A 11 base WPF increase.

Going to 39 Agi 13WM makes a single WPF to 246. A 12 base WPF increase.

Difference in WPF from adding 3 agility points and max out WM by one more is thus between 31 (3 to 6 agi, 1 to 2 WM : 45 to 76 on a single WPF) and 11 (33 to 36 agi, 11 to 12 WM : 223 to 234 on a single WPF)

When max difference in WPF penalty from adding 3 strength points is around 1.7% for ranged, and around 1.1% for melee.

1.7% of 234 is around 4 points.

=> We're pretty much assured that increasing agility by 3 and WM by 1 is always more efficient for adding more WPF than increasing strength by 3.

If, for some reason though, you're playing a ranged with high strength, 1 or 2 IF already, and are left with 7 skill points, you may invest those 7 skill points in IF as opposed to convert them to 3 agi 1 WM. You may get better effective WPF overall (4 or 5 IF above 3 factored by 3.4% of 170-ish is a 20 to 30 effective WPF increase ! more than you could get from one WM point).

That'll be all for tonight, folks.

[Edit] : I've just realized that "Pondered" means nothing near what I meant

. I meant "Pondérée" as the word "Weighted" in "Weighted Average".

But since that post is about item weight all over the place, I don't feel like replacing Pondered by Weighted everywhere and keep it clear (or I'm being lazy...).

Oh, well... cheer up, you've just learned a new french word

[Edit] (*) : For the fun, I've tried to add, for each gear example above, an evaluation of the running speed with different agi builds, using WaltF4 curves (

http://forum.melee.org/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/running-in-crpg/). I guess those mechanics were hard coded by M&B team and thus didn't evolve much. I've taken the liberty of eye-smoothing WaltF4 graphs, and I'm taking the lower left of his graph as a reference speed of 100% (which should roughly correspond to the speed of a 10 Athletics-guy running around with no armor and no weapon).

Note : carrying other stuff, as well as holding a weapon in hand may alter those speed values in a non linear way, based on weapon weight and length. Please refer to WaltF4 post for further information.

Further note : As pointer out by somebody in the speed thread, those graphs on running speeds may not accurately reflect differences in acceleration, which, to my knowledge, are yet to be thoroughly tested.