Melee Gaming

cRPG => Announcements => Topic started by: chadz on May 13, 2011, 06:42:43 PM

Title: Official Survey about item power
Post by: chadz on May 13, 2011, 06:42:43 PM
We are trying to do a global survey about the general attitude towards items.

Please take this seriously, and try to answer honestly.

Also, the result this poll shows is not really what interests us the most - we will do detailed statistics with the raw data.

Illogical answers will be removed automatically from the result (like buffing and nerfing the same item).
Picking less answers will (probably) grant your vote a higher priority.

you can change your vote.
also, this vote is secret, please do not try to influence other people.

I know this poll is limited, it's just intended to give us a general idea.
To give you a helping hand in answering the topics, ask yourself this question:
buff <item class> - would I like the fact that every item in that class would get it's stats increased by 5%.
nerf <item class> - would I like the fact that every item in that class would get it's stats decreased by 5%.

that should give you a good idea about what to tick and what not.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: chadz on May 13, 2011, 06:56:39 PM
bumping to the top.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 13, 2011, 07:02:35 PM
May I say that it is likely the average player will vote to buff their most used playstyle and nerf their natural counter. I don't see how this will give you any accurate data, but welcome the chance to offer honest feedback nonetheless.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Thovex on May 13, 2011, 07:05:15 PM
May I say that it is likely the average player will vote to buff their most used playstyle and nerf their natural counter. I don't see how this will give you any accurate data, but welcome the chance to offer honest feedback nonetheless.

Which is probably gonna happen.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Reinhardt on May 13, 2011, 07:05:48 PM
May I say that it is likely the average player will vote to buff their most used playstyle and nerf their natural counter. I don't see how this will give you any accurate data, but welcome the chance to offer honest feedback nonetheless.


1 choice for me: buff speed of 1hers. ^^

I think that some people will take this seriously, and considering chadz himself said that the devs would do "detailed research".... I think it'll work out.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 13, 2011, 07:08:36 PM
I chose both Buff polearms and Nerf polearms, the most expensive ones are OP while spears needs a buff...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Legio_Matteo_Valente_IV on May 13, 2011, 07:11:20 PM
I think only polearms should be nerfed a little, someone can stun (no blunt weapon but, for example, the hafted blade) you and continue spamming without possibility to block it.
Other classes are balanced i think
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Dom.Miguel on May 13, 2011, 07:11:54 PM
Fix trowing and arrow pick up
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Reinhardt on May 13, 2011, 07:12:36 PM
I think only polearms should be nerfed a little, someone can stun (no blunt weapon but, for example, the hafted blade) you and continue spamming without possibility to block it.
Other classes are balanced i think

Yes, I agree with this. I've been stunlocked many times. It doesn't matter how much damage it does,, it's all a matter of speed. 1hers are also slower than polearms and 2hers in a way that they honestly cannot get a hit in... at all sometimes.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ToxicKilla on May 13, 2011, 07:16:58 PM
If bows get a nerf, please, please do not nerf the longbow. It's the only bow (in my opinion) that is balanced.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Thomek on May 13, 2011, 07:20:00 PM
Generally the mod is more balanced than ever.

Might have noticed my campaign to buff the katana a bit.

To sum up:

* Same speed
* +3 or 4 to thrust so it doesn't bump 70% of the time. (Right now it's very suicidal to try it)
* +1 or 2 to cut to match the longsword

This will make it more or less equal to longsword and the bastards. (price is fine, and still more than the other short 2handers)

And.. another "request", less logically, and perhaps more egoistically motived.. make some of the spears 1-slot items or not dropping to the ground at least. Spears and pikes are great for teamwork, and so many times I've dropped pikes at spawn for teammates. (Bamboo.. ahem.. please :-) I know you have some ninja love in your black, cold heart chadz!)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: chadz on May 13, 2011, 07:23:11 PM
I know this poll is limited, it's just intended to give us a general idea.
To give you a helping hand in answering the topics, ask yourself this question:
buff <item class> - would I like the fact that every item in that class would get it's stats increased by 5%.
nerf <item class> - would I like the fact that every item in that class would get it's stats decreased by 5%.

that should give you a good idea about what to tick and what not.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Momo on May 13, 2011, 07:24:07 PM
The game seems pretty balanced atm, the only thing that should be fixed is the ability of polearms to completely stunlock you making you impossible to block. And, give maces bonus againts shields then we don't need to nerf shields : D.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Keshian on May 13, 2011, 07:26:32 PM
Can ONLY select up to 18, damn, jk.  But would be interesting to know results at the end.  Most things are balanced right now, except horses speed/maneuverability stilll pretty high.  Once the January patch nerfed levels and made 3 agility per riding it wasn't immediately an issue because of expensive upkeep, but with upkeep lowered in one of the hotfixes and people accumulating gold for months so cavalry definitely becoming an unbalancing factor.  pre-January you could dodge a lance with good enough athletics, but most people have far less athletics now with level cap so couching lances and lollancings are really easy kills.  Would not be surprised if cav kills have been steadily rising for past 2 months as a percentage of all kills.  They also have been getting fewer and fewer ranged counters so the dancing just out of range and then swooping in with high speed and maneuvarability and almost always a longer weapon except against bamboo spear, long spear, and pike has become quite common. 
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: polkafranzi on May 13, 2011, 07:30:57 PM
Can ONLY select up to 18, damn, jk.  But would be interesting to know results at the end.  Most things are balanced right now, except horses speed/maneuverability stilll pretty high.  Once the January patch nerfed levels and made 3 agility per riding it wasn't immediately an issue because of expensive upkeep, but with upkeep lowered in one of the hotfixes and people accumulating gold for months so cavalry definitely becoming an unbalancing factor.  pre-January you could dodge a lance with good enough athletics, but most people have far less athletics now with level cap so couching lances and lollancings are really easy kills.  Would not be surprised if cav kills have been steadily rising for past 2 months as a percentage of all kills.  They also have been getting fewer and fewer ranged counters so the dancing just out of range and then swooping in with high speed and maneuvarability and almost always a longer weapon except against bamboo spear, long spear, and pike has become quite common.

i have nothing to do with you but every post i ever happen to stumble across by you is QQ and whine about cav...give it a rest, the key is in the title of the game, not the mod
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Momo on May 13, 2011, 07:35:08 PM
Can ONLY select up to 18, damn, jk.  But would be interesting to know results at the end.  Most things are balanced right now, except horses speed/maneuverability stilll pretty high.  Once the January patch nerfed levels and made 3 agility per riding it wasn't immediately an issue because of expensive upkeep, but with upkeep lowered in one of the hotfixes and people accumulating gold for months so cavalry definitely becoming an unbalancing factor.  pre-January you could dodge a lance with good enough athletics, but most people have far less athletics now with level cap so couching lances and lollancings are really easy kills.  Would not be surprised if cav kills have been steadily rising for past 2 months as a percentage of all kills.  They also have been getting fewer and fewer ranged counters so the dancing just out of range and then swooping in with high speed and maneuvarability and almost always a longer weapon except against bamboo spear, long spear, and pike has become quite common.

Personally I never had any problems with cav, you can avoid them if you keep an eye on them. They often made me GTX because of the sneak attacks, but that's not a balance problem  :mrgreen:. But, there is only one thing I dislike about them, the damn speed bonus, they took 3/4 (lancers) of my hp when they came at me like 3km/h that's a JOKE. Make them do this on like 30-40km/h not on 3, thanks.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: MrShine on May 13, 2011, 07:35:56 PM
I selected buff cav, but really my focus was on decreasing upkeep/purchase costs.  Given the recent nerfs to cav I think the incredible cost to purchase and upkeep them could use some toning down.

I speak as someone who's never played cav, and also as someone who could afford the upkeep costs should I want to roll one.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Keshian on May 13, 2011, 07:41:29 PM
i have nothing to do with you but every post i ever happen to stumble across by you is QQ and whine about cav...give it a rest, the key is in the title of the game, not the mod

You should click on my profile and read my last 458 posts (only 9 on cavalry).
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tomas_of_Miles on May 13, 2011, 07:46:43 PM
I bet people will say nerf crossbows... I would like to say they are pretty balanced atm, and any nerf should only lessen the heirloom values as opposed to the unheirloomed values. And throwing is pretty pointless atm. Everything else is nice. I was personally fine with cavalry before the nerf, and I am also saddened to see the decline of a fairly different build, the mounted thrower. I've got to say small changes chadz, small changes, we are getting there with balance, so close!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Reinhardt on May 13, 2011, 07:51:51 PM
Can ONLY select up to 18, damn, jk.  But would be interesting to know results at the end.  Most things are balanced right now, except horses speed/maneuverability stilll pretty high.  Once the January patch nerfed levels and made 3 agility per riding it wasn't immediately an issue because of expensive upkeep, but with upkeep lowered in one of the hotfixes and people accumulating gold for months so cavalry definitely becoming an unbalancing factor.  pre-January you could dodge a lance with good enough athletics, but most people have far less athletics now with level cap so couching lances and lollancings are really easy kills.  Would not be surprised if cav kills have been steadily rising for past 2 months as a percentage of all kills.  They also have been getting fewer and fewer ranged counters so the dancing just out of range and then swooping in with high speed and maneuvarability and almost always a longer weapon except against bamboo spear, long spear, and pike has become quite common.


l... o.... fucking....l......
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Warcat on May 13, 2011, 07:54:30 PM
I'd really like to see the torch buffed againist non armor wearers and siege equipment. Should be able to set people and catapults on fire.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Donkey on May 13, 2011, 07:56:16 PM
Cavalry needs to be balanced somehow, especially lancing. Their ability to get easy kills is sickening. Watching a few lancers pick off your WHOLE team is very demoralizing. Perhaps they shouldn't be able to one shot people with ease.

Also, the speed at some builds swing their weapons makes it nearly impossible to counter sometimes.

I started playing last month and cRPG is still a great mod overall. Keep up the good work, chadz.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Ronan on May 13, 2011, 08:03:59 PM
Sadly, I did pick what I use. But thats only because thats what I know.

1: Buff horses... Not that what you did to them is at all bad really... Just I think the cost for upkeep should go down. Horse speed and armor are fine I think. Might need a bit of nerf or buff as far as that goes. It really depends on what happens to it natural predators really.

2:buff one hand weapons... They do seem slower than spears and 2/h. Just speed really and a miner tweak really. And as far as the Katana goes I think it should be a good slasher not a good stabber. Europeans are the ones who really abused the ability to stab and Easterners abused the slash "the perfect strike"

3: Buff throw: ok 2slots is fine. Just the amount of ammo is retarded. If u think about it anything less than a thrown lance can not be used as a melee weapon. Ya kinda killed the unique style of M&B by basically dismantling throwing weapons. Maybe even give throwing lances back some of their ammo but make it so IF you choose that weapon you can ONLY have that weapon in your inventory. If thats possible.... But a side note on that is people can just pick up weapons in the battlefield (abuse). Ive used javelins for a small while. 1 slot with 3 ammo was nice but still gave me 9 + a one slot weapon. So I see how thats a bit much. Maybe keep it 2 slot but up it to 2 slot 4 ammo, as well as the others that fall into that category. And another idea is to up the weight to slow them back pedaling down since Im sure the realistic nuts would agree that throwing weapons (not really including axes) are very heavy.

What I didnt vote for, but have ideas for:

Buff Bow: give them a faster reload time. Theyre cavs #1 enemy.

Buff xbow: give them better pierce to counter tincans a bit more.

And cav archers are going to need an enemy. They will soon dominate the field I believe. I was working on my anti-cav-archer build pre-patch and then you took from me my ammo and my loom speed on my courser. :( either way something needs to counter thoughs guys since they have an auto buff to mobility. Maybe slower reload on horse? 
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gurnisson on May 13, 2011, 08:06:23 PM
Buff thrown was the only option I ticked. Apart from that, every class seems balanced to me.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Ujin on May 13, 2011, 08:07:23 PM
I am so fcking tired of the everlasting anticav whine it almost makes me wanna puke. The whine won't ever stop until cavalry is nerfed to the ground, pretty sad. Either remove cav from the game or just keep it the way it is atm with some slight changes to price/upkeep.


Other than that , i voted "buff armors". It doesn't affect any specific class and at the same times affects all classes, with the increased number of heirloomed weapons in the game and the growing population of STR builds i think it will make the game abit more interesting and fights abit more prolonged, imho.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Ronan on May 13, 2011, 08:10:52 PM
Cavalry needs to be balanced somehow, especially lancing. Their ability to get easy kills is sickening. Watching a few lancers pick off your WHOLE team is very demoralizing. Perhaps they shouldn't be able to one shot people with ease.

Also, the speed at some builds swing their weapons makes it nearly impossible to counter sometimes.

I started playing last month and cRPG is still a great mod overall. Keep up the good work, chadz.

sounds like cav is how it should be... Sounds realistic not to mention you could always brind a fucking PIKE!!! or maybe watch your back? huh? huh? what ya think?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Momo on May 13, 2011, 08:13:27 PM
I am so fcking tired of the everlasting anticav whine it almost makes me wanna puke. The whine won't ever stop until cavalry is nerfed to the ground, pretty sad. Either remove cav from the game or just keep it the way it is atm with some slight changes to price/upkeep.


Other than that , i voted "buff armors". It doesn't affect any specific class and at the same times affects all classes, with the increased number of heirloomed weapons in the game and the growing population of STR builds i think it will make the game abit more interesting and fights abit more prolonged, imho.

Nerf speed bonus, problem solved. In most cases people whine about cav because they get lanced to the face when the cav just walks with the horse and that's RETARDED!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 13, 2011, 08:15:20 PM
I am so fcking tired of the everlasting anticav whine it almost makes me wanna puke. The whine won't ever stop until cavalry is nerfed to the ground, pretty sad. Either remove cav from the game or just keep it the way it is atm with some slight changes to price/upkeep.


Other than that , i voted "buff armors". It doesn't affect any specific class and at the same times affects all classes, with the increased number of heirloomed weapons in the game and the growing population of STR builds i think it will make the game abit more interesting and fights abit more prolonged, imho.

welcome to the 2h club ? lol
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Rhaelys on May 13, 2011, 08:15:37 PM
Am I one of the only people who voted to change nothing?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gnjus on May 13, 2011, 08:16:13 PM
bla, bla, bla And cav archers are going to need an enemy. They will soon dominate the field I believe, bla, bla, bla

Horse/foot archers ALWAYS needed an enemy and they always had (at least) one. Only a dead archer is a good one. The only cool archers are those who are dead for some time now.  :wink:

P.S. no, i didn't vote on nerfing them. I didn't vote at all.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Reinhardt on May 13, 2011, 08:19:29 PM
sounds like cav is how it should be... Sounds realistic not to mention you could always brind a fucking PIKE!!! or maybe watch your back? huh? huh? what ya think?

Too logical.

Thread successfully derailed.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gatsby on May 13, 2011, 08:21:25 PM
I voted to nerf bow/polearm: but only the speed of the bow, not damage, coz they look like machine gun sometimes.
About polearm, only the pike seems little bit unrealistic, too fast. But i also think some polearms should take less slots, or would be quite hard to defend yourself by horsemen.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lech on May 13, 2011, 08:22:27 PM
I selected few choices that deserve nerf: horses, 2h, polearms, bow.

I think that best 1h weapons need to be slightly nerfed too (elite scimitar, broad battle axe or however it's called nowadays).
I think that most maneuverable horses need their maneuver reduced by few points (3-4) and generally horses dominate atm.
I think that damage across the board for 2h and Polearms need to be reduced across the board.
I think that bow damage need to be reduced slightly.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Casimir on May 13, 2011, 08:24:56 PM
Buff armour so that killing people doest just requires spamming greatswords in melee so much luck and plate is more effective for the money.

Reduce polearms sing speed but give greater damage making distinction between faster 2h and higher damaging polearms.

DONT nerf horses any further, if anything they should receive a minor rebuff.

everything else should be NERFED! ;)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Bulzur on May 13, 2011, 08:30:51 PM
Most of the things seems pretty balanced at the moment, and buffing or nerfing all a category of one sort would be totally unbalanced.

Horse's maneuver are a bit too high. A lot of HA and lancers takes advantage of that (with the arabian warhorse mostly) and aiming at HA or dodging a couching lance is harder than before.

Bows and Xbows seem pretty balanced. Even though at high level they shoot quite fast, we shall remind people that the ammo limit makes it useless to "machinegun", at least for foot archers with a melee weapon. HA with 3 quivers may be a pain though, but if we limit the number of max quiver to 2, every ha will have a melee weapon and will probably have more kill with it than with it's bow.
Throwing is a bit underpowered though. Too few ammo for too few damage. I have seen 3 throwers in one day of play, they're close to disapearing wich is... a shame ? No, maybe not, i hate them. But it's a bit sad still. A little buff would be welcomed for them.

High level polearms are quite fast. Maybe too fast. But a mear -1 speed might be enough.

But overall, if nothing's change, i won't regret it, my polearm/long spear alt is still doing decent.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Varyag on May 13, 2011, 08:33:50 PM
PLEASE:

1) Buff horses. ATM they are not worth the money they consume.

2) Buff 1H speed. They are supposed to be fast and light. For my 15 str 21 agi char  it takes 3-4 hits to kill a medium armored guy, while most 2 handers kill me in my heavy armor with 1 hit. IMHO its not fair.

3) Decrease shields weight OR increase 2 Handers and polearms weight. I frankly donst understand how small wooden shield can weight 2 times more than huge 2 hander steel sword or axe....

THANK YOU
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lars on May 13, 2011, 08:39:35 PM
Well i'm a shielder and i think that some 1h swords got nerfed too much, now a MW long espada eslavona has only 30 cut damage, with 6 PS i bounce a lot of times against enemies with  a decent armor, try it yourself... except  the side sword i  don't think that 1h swords were OP in the previous patch.
For what concern other classes... i think horses got nerfed a lil too much ,2h are fine,  maybe polearms stun for too long.

P.s i noticed that many people now use the scimitar ( a mw scimitar does 35 cut dmg which is ok imo), so i don't think that you solved the problem nerfing the damage of the other swords... i mean a Mw Eslavona in the old patch did 33 cut dmg , how can it be OP? you also nerfed pierce dmg.

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: justme on May 13, 2011, 08:42:39 PM
can you pls nerf HA, in the way of penalty using bows on horse, like speed of reloding? or make them play only in 1st view style
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: wayyyyyne on May 13, 2011, 08:44:22 PM
Nerf everything able to kill me

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: hotcobbler on May 13, 2011, 08:45:15 PM
I voted to buff throwing a bit, as I think it got a little over-nerfed in the last patch, and has subsequently dissapeared from the servers. Also, 2h and pole should get a nerf, as they simply outclass everything right now. Maybe not spears, but definitely swinging polearms.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Reinhardt on May 13, 2011, 08:47:30 PM
can you pls nerf HA, in the way of penalty using bows on horse, like speed of reloding? or make them play only in 1st view style
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Punisher on May 13, 2011, 08:51:17 PM
I voted for Buffing armor, nothing dramatic, just +10% armor on all body armors. With all the strenght builds and ranged spam these days, I think it will improve the gameplay and would also make ironflesh a bit more useful than just a place to dump extra skillpoints into.

Also voted for nerfing polearms, the only needed nerf is removing polearm stun. The old argument was 2H have lolstab, polearms have stun - since 2H don't have lolstab anymore, there is no reason for polearms to keep their stun. Removing it would make 2H and polearms equivalent : 2H have better speed and animations; polearms are longer, a bit more damage (+bonus vs shields for high tier polearms) and offer more versatility.

As for cav, the only necessary change would be adding a trample sound that can be heard from distance. Now you only hear it at point blank when unless the cav misses you are already dead, and having a horse silently gallop towards you is a bit silly.

Generally cRPG is more balanced then ever, apart from the things I mentioned above, only some internal class balancing is needed (for example Huscarl is still by far the best shield, Arabian Warhorse the best horse, etc).
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on May 13, 2011, 08:55:31 PM
to answer this really honestly I would have to play each item class with a proper char first. but i try to get a feeling what should be changed when playing next.

right now i'd say horses could reveive a minor buff and throwing but thats only guessing. also higher armour could be a bit more effective against ranged again, maybe more slowing down to compensate.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 13, 2011, 08:56:10 PM
I selected few choices that deserve nerf: horses, 2h, polearms, bow.

I think that best 1h weapons need to be slightly nerfed too (elite scimitar, broad battle axe or however it's called nowadays).
I think that most maneuverable horses need their maneuver reduced by few points (3-4) and generally horses dominate atm.
I think that damage across the board for 2h and Polearms need to be reduced across the board.
I think that bow damage need to be reduced slightly.

Nerf 2h more? lolol. Man they alrdy suck atm. why do you think so many left it ? even im wondering about it :P
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Liveon on May 13, 2011, 09:00:40 PM
Result of the vote; it is easy to predict.
Most people play with 1h +2 h + pole + xbow, naturally wish to nerfs the archers / HA / Cavs / throws.
The dictatorship of the majority,ekhm,... this is democracy ...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 13, 2011, 09:04:22 PM
I bet you are interested in the proportion of people voting in a "I'm paper, buff paper, nerf scissors, rock is good as is" fashion. Furthermore, I think it's probably to evaluate how much you can trust players when it comes to needed changes.

Maybe you should not have put so much detail on how this data will be used. I see that many people will choose few options for their vote to be taken seriously.


The only flaw I see there is the lack of a split in the polearm category. I voted to nerf polearms, but I think that ONLY polearms that are like 2handers, capable of side swings, deserve a nerf.


Result of the vote; it is easy to predict.
Most people play with 1h +2 h + pole + xbow, naturally wish to nerfs the archers / HA / Cavs / throws.
The dictatorship of the majority,ekhm,... this is democracy ...


Sure, most people have over 9000 slots in their equipment  :lol:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 13, 2011, 09:07:20 PM
I think overall we are in a good place balance-wise. The only thing which sticks out is... throwing is disappearing as it just does not know what it is anymore - it isn't a very effective ranged class and neither is it a very effective melee class yet it seems to want to do both...terribly, when played as hybrid melee it is usable but you won't be topping scoreboards no matter how good you are.

Also polearm stun.

Thats it.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lech on May 13, 2011, 09:08:02 PM
Nerf 2h more? lolol. Man they alrdy suck atm. why do you think so many left it ? even im wondering about it :P
They don't suck. Many left because they are slightly less obvious op weapons, and because polearms are new black. Notice that i voted for both nerfing 2h and polearms, so i'm not biased (and their relative power level will stay the same when fighting each other).
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ManOfWar on May 13, 2011, 09:13:53 PM
I should have given the throwers some love and said buff throwing, but I forgot and just said leave everything as is. Also should 1h get a spped boost? I heard that and I mean, the 1h gets really speedy between 99-100, a noticeable speed
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on May 13, 2011, 09:20:54 PM
i have nothing to do with you but every post i ever happen to stumble across by you is QQ and whine about cav...give it a rest, the key is in the title of the game, not the mod

It's also the impression i get...

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: okiN on May 13, 2011, 09:33:56 PM
I should have given the throwers some love and said buff throwing, but I forgot and just said leave everything as is. Also should 1h get a spped boost? I heard that and I mean, the 1h gets really speedy between 99-100, a noticeable speed

You can always revote.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Phyrex on May 13, 2011, 09:35:20 PM
I think it's fine overall. A few tweaks is needed though, in my oppinion.

- Two-Hand needs a new thrust animation.

It has a stuttering, laggy look.

Too slow.

Late/weird hit registration.

Glancing blows, alot of them.(Just what it feels like, due to various things.)

180+ degree spinthrusts are back.

And most importantly, the thrust stun needs to be gone. Whenever I thrust, a good opponent will know that he can just slash me due to me being stunned. This is game breaking and the single most frustration for all two-handers.

To fix two-handed you need to...

- Fix the current thrust by speeding it up to atleast be on par with the polearm animation and more importantly, fix the thrust stun and get it removed.

- Fix late hit registration.

- Buff damage slightly(Tiny, 1-3 points) yet still be inferior to general polearm damage dealing.

- Speed up the swords by a couple of points to slightly above general polearm speed.

Compared to polearms, two-handed swords and Great Swords in particular is inferior in every way.

Other things on my mind...

Plated Charger needs a buff... horses in general need a buff.

Throwing needs some more projectiles in their stacks(I still hate you:P).


Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gristle on May 13, 2011, 09:38:40 PM
My character is a Crossbow / Sword & Board hybrid. All 3 of those items are fine right now. No buff needed.

The only thing I want nerfed is polearm stun. I don't want polearms to be slower, do less damage, or otherwise lose stats. They are fine otherwise, and perhaps could even do with a slight buff. I hate that some polearms are now impossible to sheath, and I hate to think that that stat could be added to more things in the future. Taking up multiple slots is bad enough.

I would have voted to buff throwing (and I hate throwers!), but there should already be a fix coming, and I don't want them to get a buff on top of a fix.

Everything else in the game seems pretty balanced right now. Personally, I think lowering stats should be avoided whenever possible. So many items were made worse with the last few patches, even if just a little bit. Things were balanced, yes, but it certainly did not improve community morale. That's just my opinion. I don't have a perfect solution either.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: marco1391 on May 13, 2011, 09:41:52 PM
buff throwing, don't increase their damage but extend their ammo count
buff hp or armor of horses as a result of the buff to throwing, and maybe reduce the manoeuvrability of the arabian warhorse by 2
buff slightly 1h weapons

imo every other class is fine atm

edit: I forgot to say to redefine the looms on xbows, they are too worthy compared to heirlooms of every other thing now
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: tankmen on May 13, 2011, 10:20:33 PM
FOR THE LOVE OF MOTH MAN(please place your god here) DONT CHANGE ANYTHING!!!

honestly i am content with the mod, well thats not true but there isnt a "buff" xp choice, 1450 at x1 i may as well be gen 1 again for all the difference it makes...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: BcBKC on May 13, 2011, 10:23:48 PM
The game right now is pretty balanced overall. I only checked 2 things.

Throwing could use some sort of buff as much as i hate it.
Some shields need hp/speed nerfs.

Other than that there are a few weapons that are clearly overpowered compared to others.

Steel pick is by far the most unbalanced weapon in crpg. 33 piercing damage on a 99 speed 1h weapon is just absurd. Sure it has short range but if you have a shield you can just hug your opponent and 1 hit him in the head. Even after the 3 damage nerf to the masterwork version it still needs to be toned down.

Bec de corbin could use a small nerf in some way and seeing as its the most used polearm currently it will probably get it. Overall polearms are balanced so well i can't decide which one to loom.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Topsnus on May 13, 2011, 11:11:37 PM
i have nothing to do with you but every post i ever happen to stumble across by you is QQ and whine about cav...give it a rest, the key is in the title of the game, not the mod
I think i remember chadz saying that this mod was intended as an infantry mod early on. So it actually has nothing to do with the name of the game, in fact, that is the dumbest of all the arguments for cavalry.

Cavalry just don't work. The issue is that they use stealth and sneaking up behind people. So in order to balance that ability they have to be weakened significantly.

The end result is that infantry think cavalry is too good because they constantly get 1 hit from behind by the, but the majority of cavalry players who don't know how to play effectively with the sneaking method think that cavalry is too weak. The only solution is to implement something to stop the sneaking up on people strategy from working than give cavalry a buff. Until then i am voting nerf cavalry because they ruin most games on open maps.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Dan lol on May 13, 2011, 11:43:53 PM
buff gen bonus

keep the rest as is
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: kinngrimm on May 13, 2011, 11:52:47 PM
things i like to see to be a little different

- Xbows should need skill points to use like any other ranged weapon.
- if i need 2 slots for a shield, it has to be really good, in terms of huscarl, it got nerfed 2 times in last 2 patches, less coverage, less hp, less toughness, increase the coverage and either hp or toughness again.
- throwing got nerfed into oblivion, the only thing what is usable at all are the war darts in the opinion of lots of throwers i have spoken to. The last nerf that Javalins need 2 slots after reducing their ammo and damage was their death sentence, same with Jarrids, Lances are even worse. I played thrower in 4 generations on my alt and it needs a lot of more skill to get close to enemies and avoid them then the other ranged classes. You normaly don't hit with most of your throws if so you are more lucky then skilled. Give more armor to lances and make it 7 PT to use them again. 3 per 2 slots, I don't think a hybrid 2h/thrower with lances with only 3 laces would be OP, if so reduce the damage not the ammo.
- There should be a 1slot Polearm(Spear) witch is between 150-170 and sheatable. That would make a horse nerf obsolet in my eyes. If you do a horse nerf instead don't go for their speed but for their aiming.
- Reduce the time you stay on ground after a horse bump and after a knockdown
- the 3 mauls there are should increase in their abilities like, the smallest ahs knockdown, the iron small one should have crushthrough and the large iron maul then can have crushthrough and knockdown.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Banok on May 13, 2011, 11:53:12 PM
I think game is more balanced than ever. throwing is useless so I vote for it. I also vote shield nerf, but i'm mostly thinking of the 360 degree forcefield a shield gives whilst mounted. and maybe thats hardcoded.

but I think poll is kind of redundant. the problems with crp is with particular item imbalance not entire weapon categories.

for example langes messer vs katana

100 speed vs 101
92 reach vs 95
37 cut vs 35
24 pierce vs 16
1 slot vs 2 slot

16 pierce on katana? even the wakizashi has 19. I defo wont be using katana anymore as soon as I retire

and this is just 1 good example I'm posting. I think the other problems are with hardcoded stuff like horse forcefields above, and polearm stun.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 14, 2011, 12:13:23 AM
It's nice to see that a lot of people are giving support to throwers, even begrudgingly. I appreciate it.

Quote from: kinngrimm
- throwing got nerfed into oblivion, the only thing what is usable at all are the war darts in the opinion of lots of throwers i have spoken to.
A lot of people actually missed this, but wardarts were reduced to 4 per stack in the most recent patch.  :lol:

Playing as a dedicated thrower for so long, I know what a difficult playstyle it really is. I don't think it was ever truly overpowered, when compared to crossbowing, as well as considering the risk vs reward, but the damage buff was warranted. It seems common consensus that the nerfs to throwing went beyond reasonable to the extreme however.

As a long time dedicated thrower, please hear me out. You have to be very careful how you balance throwing. It is in a tricky position and if done incorrectly will just cause more problems and never get fixed. What really started all the hate was throwing getting very popular after archer nerfs. It wasn't a problem when throwers were rare, but when people realized they could grab a bunch of throwing weapons and huck them around cheap as pies and do damage, it got way out of hand. No one wants that to happen again. I don't want that to happen again since it will just bring more hate towards my playstyle, which I believe could have a legitimate position in regular gameplay. These are the changes I believe would make it fair again, without letting it get out of control. Some nerf, some buff.

Lower the very high wpf requirement - It is too much. Currently, the more wpf you invest in being a better thrower, the worse your overall build becomes. The requirements for the higher levels of powerthrow are so high that reaching them effectively handicaps the build making dedicated throwers impossible. You need to be able to have points in a secondary weapon to scavenge from the ground once you run out of things to throw. This is currently impossible if you want to be a dedicated thrower and have the highest level of throwing. What happens is you run out of throwing weapons, and then run around unarmed while people scream at you and request you be banned for unarmed leaching. This is annoying.
Increase the amount of powerthrow needed for throwing weapons - This would make it require more of a point investment to add throwing to a build, without eliminating the possibility altogether like the wpf hike did. Making hybrids more expensive this way wouldn't punish dedicated throwers like the wpf increase did.
Increase accuracy - Either by amount of wpf, amount of powerthrow, quality of the weapons, or a mix. It doesn't matter, as long as accuracy is increased. Aiming is currently like gambling since the reticule is very wide, even for a dedicated thrower.
Stack size; very small increase + heirloom increase - I don't feel these need to be raised by much. Certainly the higher quality throwing weapons like spears jarrids and lances have become useless at such low amounts. For instance, you can throw 1.5 jarrids per slot. While I feel that they could be increased just a little bit, and certainly I believe 100% that heirlooming them should increase the stack size again, I don't feel they should be returned to the amount you could have before. The reduced stacks encourage more patience and timing, and only skilled throwers remain effective at it. The current amounts are a little too low however. Especially on the 80-100 man servers.
Leave speed, distance, damage, and slot amounts as is. - Naturally bolts and arrows should fly much faster, throwing requires heavier timing to connect with targets. Distance might seem too poor right now, but that's just the way it is. If you want range, pick up a crossbow. They cost nearly nothing to add to a build and have plenty of range and punch. You get used to the range after a while. Damage has already been reduced a lot to the point where people don't complain about it anymore, and at higher levels of powerthrow it is better, reduced stack size unbalanced this a little however, but I enjoy the playstyle enough to look past that disadvantage. Slot size, while many people complain about, I feel was actually the smartest change. If the idea was to cut down on the sheer amount of people making throwing hybrids, then job well done. It never felt right to be able to carry a ton of throwing weapons and then just whip out a 2h sword at will. There were also far too many ?/thrower hybrids and it got old pretty fast. Archery being good again as well as the slot increase and the low requirements for crossbows eliminated this, not the wpf hike. Well, that, and the brutal overnerfing. That stopped it right up too if you want to get technical. 

The proper thrower playstyle should be "start with nothing but throwing weapons, throw all or half, scavenge weapon from ground to defend yourself with. Hunt for stray throwing weapons. Survive." It's a very difficult, but very rewarding playstyle which is a natural counter to heavy cav, and cocky plates. Their natural enemies are shield users, who ruin all but the most skilled throwers. I'm very in favour of the idea that tactics should be used by teams to win. The more complicated the game of rock paper scissors gets, the more rewarding and enjoyable it will overall become.

The tl;dr: Lower wpf requirement(buff), increase powerthrow requirement(nerf), increase accuracy(buff), small stack size increase particularly for heirlooms(slight buff).

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Momo on May 14, 2011, 12:14:24 AM
things i like to see to be a little different

- Xbows should need skill points to use like any other ranged weapon.
- if i need 2 slots for a shield, it has to be really good, in terms of huscarl, it got nerfed 2 times in last 2 patches, less coverage, less hp, less toughness, increase the coverage and either hp or toughness again.
- throwing got nerfed into oblivion, the only thing what is usable at all are the war darts in the opinion of lots of throwers i have spoken to. The last nerf that Javalins need 2 slots after reducing their ammo and damage was their death sentence, same with Jarrids, Lances are even worse. I played thrower in 4 generations on my alt and it needs a lot of more skill to get close to enemies and avoid them then the other ranged classes. You normaly don't hit with most of your throws if so you are more lucky then skilled. Give more armor to lances and make it 7 PT to use them again. 3 per 2 slots, I don't think a hybrid 2h/thrower with lances with only 3 laces would be OP, if so reduce the damage not the ammo.
- There should be a 1slot Polearm(Spear) witch is between 150-170 and sheatable. That would make a horse nerf obsolet in my eyes. If you do a horse nerf instead don't go for their speed but for their aiming.
- Reduce the time you stay on ground after a horse bump and after a knockdown
- the 3 mauls there are should increase in their abilities like, the smallest ahs knockdown, the iron small one should have crushthrough and the large iron maul then can have crushthrough and knockdown.

Stop QQ, you have your ridiculous pick, I hope that one will be nerfed too not just the shield. Also Huscarl is still almost the BEST shield so....
All of the 2h weps are 2 slots, and I dont think that the prac sword is really good..
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Ufthak on May 14, 2011, 12:21:49 AM
This comment will probably be unpopular, but I think throwing needs a buff. With the recent war dart ammo size reduction, dedicated throwing pretty much no longer exists. The change brought about by slot sizes already hurt them enough, and as far as I can tell resulted in the recent influx of archers on the NA server. It might have been a bit annoying when EVERY SINGLE PERSON had some means of ranged attack, it never really felt that imbalanced or anything. Granted this is all speculation, but increasing throwing ammo size or letting up a bit of slot consumption for non-throwing lances might help avoid some of these recent 20-30 archer per team matches where the main melee fray consists of a staggering five people per team, with sixty archers sitting on hills behind them firing at each other.

If I'm completely off base in thinking that, then I would change my answer to nerf crossbow and bow. I don't have any problem with ranged attackers, quite the contrary; there's just simply too many of them lately, and it's taking away from the pretty loud clangs. :( Maybe it's just a passing fad, here's hoping. (personally, I'm a polearm user, typically spears and pikes, I've never added to throwing or power throw.)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tydeus on May 14, 2011, 12:22:25 AM
To give you a helping hand in answering the topics, ask yourself this question:
buff <item class> - would I like the fact that every item in that class would get it's stats increased by 5%.
nerf <item class> - would I like the fact that every item in that class would get it's stats decreased by 5%.
Had to vote to leave everything as is. There are minor balances I think every class(except for sword and board) needs, but nothing like a 5% stat increase across the board for that classes items. Throwing would be the closest thing to needing a 5% increase across the board, if I had to choose one thing. After that, it'd probably be "revert the 2h thrust animation". Neither of which really qualify as buffing the entirety of the class.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 14, 2011, 12:28:03 AM
They don't suck. Many left because they are slightly less obvious op weapons, and because polearms are new black. Notice that i voted for both nerfing 2h and polearms, so i'm not biased (and their relative power level will stay the same when fighting each other).

So nearly all 2h players is just noobs who wanted a op weapon ? lol dude rly ? And their relative power level with stay the same? .... erm 2h kinda fails, polearms is op atm.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 14, 2011, 12:30:00 AM
I think it's fine overall. A few tweaks is needed though, in my oppinion.

- Two-Hand needs a new thrust animation.

It has a stuttering, laggy look.

Too slow.

Late/weird hit registration.

Glancing blows, alot of them.(Just what it feels like, due to various things.)

180+ degree spinthrusts are back.

And most importantly, the thrust stun needs to be gone. Whenever I thrust, a good opponent will know that he can just slash me due to me being stunned. This is game breaking and the single most frustration for all two-handers.

To fix two-handed you need to...

- Fix the current thrust by speeding it up to atleast be on par with the polearm animation and more importantly, fix the thrust stun and get it removed.

- Fix late hit registration.

- Buff damage slightly(Tiny, 1-3 points) yet still be inferior to general polearm damage dealing.

- Speed up the swords by a couple of points to slightly above general polearm speed.

Compared to polearms, two-handed swords and Great Swords in particular is inferior in every way.

Other things on my mind...

Plated Charger needs a buff... horses in general need a buff.

Throwing needs some more projectiles in their stacks(I still hate you:P).

Yeah couldent agree more.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 14, 2011, 12:34:13 AM
Ohh shit if polearms are going to be nerfed my spear will be even weaker :O polearm axes needs nerf leave the rest please :)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lech on May 14, 2011, 12:38:44 AM
So nearly all 2h players is just noobs who wanted a op weapon ? lol dude rly ? And their relative power level with stay the same? .... erm 2h kinda fails, polearms is op atm.

Yes, they are players who want to have big edge in melee combat, and think they have dueling weapon (while using great swords, formation weapon that is meant to support other players). If you want dueling weapon, there is still Longsword for you, awesome weapon btw.

Phyrex is good example of it, he want no-glance whirlwind attacks and lolstabs back. Oh, wow, he even want superfast greatswords. WOW. :shock:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hirlok on May 14, 2011, 12:39:12 AM
The thing I am most annoyed with since the last patch is the slot system. I makes no sense that an archer or xbow can not be any kind of hybrid any more (unless he uses a useless bow and has one quiver of arrows, making him a 2h/pole with a sidearm bow, not an archer - a useful archer has to spend 4 slots on bow and 2 quivers of arrows), while overpowered 2H monsters can still have a tiny little bec or pike or shield/1h as secondary weapon....

Besides that most stuff is quite well balanced now, I'd say (and I say that not only as an archer, but playing polearm, shielder/thrower, etc. alts as well).

One more thing: while I know that most users prefer the timelapse jumpslash hectical unrealistic BF2 type of battle - the speed of many weapons in this game is slightly outerworldly, in many cases you do not even see any animation any more, you just fall dead while the guy with that tiny poleaxe or bec seemingly did not even move...

So I voted for a (moderate) nerf of 2H and poles.

Force them to be "pure" just as us ranged folks (or give us back the possiblity to have a decent weapon, we are crippled enough by having to spend each and every single WPF on archery... ) and make them a little slower, esp. the big and heavy ones - no one in real life swings a bec, a long mace, big sword or a poleaxe faster than the eye can see...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Momo on May 14, 2011, 12:41:51 AM
The thing I am most annoyed with since the last patch is the slot system. I makes no sense that an archer or xbow can not be any kind of hybrid any more (unless he uses a useless bow and has one quiver of arrows, making him a 2h/pole with a sidearm bow, not an archer - a useful archer has to spend 4 slots on bow and 2 quivers of arrows), while overpowered 2H monsters can still have a tiny little bec or pike or shield/1h as secondary weapon....

Besides that most stuff is quite well balanced now, I'd say (and I say that not only as an archer, but playing polearm, shielder/thrower, etc. alts as well).

One more thing: while I know that most users prefer the timelapse jumpslash hectical unrealistic BF2 type of battle - the speed of many weapons in this game is slightly outerworldly, in many cases you do not even see any animation any more, you just fall dead while the guy with that tiny poleaxe or bec seemingly did not even move...

So I voted for a (moderate) nerf of 2H and poles.

Force them to be "pure" just as us ranged folks (or give us back the possiblity to have a decent weapon, we are crippled enough by having to spend each and every single WPF on archery... ) and make them a little slower, esp. the big and heavy ones - no one in real life swings an bec, a long mace or a poleaxe faster than the eye can see...

1hs can do the exact same thing...especially without a shield :)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 14, 2011, 12:46:46 AM
Yes, they are players who want to have big edge in melee combat, and think they have dueling weapon (while using great swords, formation weapon that is meant to support other players). If you want dueling weapon, there is still Longsword for you, awesome weapon btw.

Phyrex is good example of it, he want no-glance whirlwind attacks and lolstabs back. Oh, wow, he even want superfast greatswords. WOW. :shock:

Every playerer picked thier build thinking it would give them an advantage in SOME aspect of combat, otherwise why would they bother? Just count how many throwers you see these days. I do agree that the greatswords are a tad op in their current form though.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 14, 2011, 12:48:12 AM
The thing I am most annoyed with since the last patch is the slot system. I makes no sense that an archer or xbow can not be any kind of hybrid any more (unless he uses a useless bow and has one quiver of arrows, making him a 2h/pole with a sidearm bow, not an archer - a useful archer has to spend 4 slots on bow and 2 quivers of arrows), while overpowered 2H monsters can still have a tiny little bec or pike or shield/1h as secondary weapon....

Besides that most stuff is quite well balanced now, I'd say (and I say that not only as an archer, but playing polearm, shielder/thrower, etc. alts as well).

One more thing: while I know that most users prefer the timelapse jumpslash hectical unrealistic BF2 type of battle - the speed of many weapons in this game is slightly outerworldly, in many cases you do not even see any animation any more, you just fall dead while the guy with that tiny poleaxe or bec seemingly did not even move...

So I voted for a (moderate) nerf of 2H and poles.

Force them to be "pure" just as us ranged folks (or give us back the possiblity to have a decent weapon, we are crippled enough by having to spend each and every single WPF on archery... ) and make them a little slower, esp. the big and heavy ones - no one in real life swings a bec, a long mace, big sword or a poleaxe faster than the eye can see...

Dont put polearms and 2h in the same group dude. And rly nerf 2hs more ? have you seen how many people left 2h ? i dont think there is any other class which has got that many leavers. Im a 2h veteran. And i love 2h, always the wep i pick in mediaval games. But i am even beginning to wonder about goin 1h or polearm.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hirlok on May 14, 2011, 12:48:41 AM
1hs can do the exact same thing...especially without a shield :)

that is right, but at least it is a little less absurd than swinging some hugish monster like poleaxe or flam in a way that we now see in this game - at least the "self stun" between swings is noticeably higher with big heavy 2H/polearm weapons, as any martial arts practitioner (or wood cutter) can tell.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Momo on May 14, 2011, 12:50:20 AM
that is right, but at least it is a little less absurd than swinging some hugish monster like poleaxe or flam in a way that we now see in this game - at least the "self stun" between swings is noticeably higher with big heavy 2H/polearm weapons, as any martial arts practitioner (or wood cutter) can tell.

Well, you are right, maybe there should not be any items which can do this absurd thing.
Edit: Or do something with the speed, or I don't know xD.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 14, 2011, 12:50:53 AM
Every playerer picked thier build thinking it would give them an advantage in SOME aspect of combat, otherwise why would they bother? Just count how many throwers you see these days. I do agree that the greatswords are a tad op in their current form though.

Erm.... woot?. Greatswords are op ? have you seen nerfs ? have you seen stab dmg ? have you seen the stab stun (wtf). Do you play a 2h?

And you dont even think the polearms are op ? what about their sick speed/reach and stun?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Momo on May 14, 2011, 12:52:36 AM
Erm.... woot?. Greatswords are op ? have you seen nerfs ? have you seen stab dmg ? have you seen the stab stun (wtf). Do you play a 2h?

And you dont even think the polearms are op ? what about their sick speed/reach and stun?

I am a 2h, and I think the stab dmg is ok on swords, the animation needs serious fixing imo.
Edit: And I think, polearms are superior to 2hs now.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hirlok on May 14, 2011, 12:55:49 AM
Dont put polearms and 2h in the same group dude.

I did not generalize and did not talk about damage etc. - just the speed issue. And that is the same with most poles and the big 2h weapons.
To avoid misunderstandings: while I indeed advocate making the game overall slower, in this case I am just talking about specific "big" weapons being unrealistically fast, most of them in the 2H / pole category. It would also be nice to see real differences between weapons in the same class - e.g. having really heavy crushing things that take 2 seconds to swing opposite to blazing fast eastern blades, etc.
Right now the specs are all quite close together.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Peasant_Woman on May 14, 2011, 12:56:22 AM
Erm.... woot?. Greatswords are op ? have you seen nerfs ? have you seen stab dmg ? have you seen the stab stun (wtf). Do you play a 2h?

And you dont even think the polearms are op ? what about their sick speed/reach and stun?

Yes I play 2h. Yes I think some of them are op. Stab is for polearms. I think polearm stun is op and a select few of the axe type poles should be 2handers not poles. Feel better?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 14, 2011, 01:02:16 AM
Sry dude, but this is pissing me of. Wanna nerf a alrdy nerfed 2h. Which even have some bugs with animatons. I dont see why, you can still see it as op.

Trying to save the 2h, just a little bit. Wanting to nerf alrdy nerfed shitty weapons... is just... meh.

Btw if you wanna put speed down on pole/2h, you rly gotta put down speed on 1h too. They are just freaking fast. Even with a big heavy shield, and they just have to right-click to block.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: IceManX on May 14, 2011, 01:10:40 AM
I think its good balanced at the moment.

Upkeep is working very well. Nearly every armor which can be bought is used.
For myself I have armor for every 7 Slots, Leg, Body and so on.
And I use many combinations. Sometimes Plate just for fun, then medium armor for normal play and so on.
Upkeep is good and doesnt need any fixes.

XP gain could be a bit faster, perhaps every 30 seconds a tick instead of every 60 seconds. I think lvling is really difficult at the moment. Imagine you are at x1, gain 1k XP a tick.
Round over at 2min and 40 seconds... you got 2 ticks and 2k XP...
I think you should improve the XP and Gold tick.
Make it 30 seconds and 30 gold and 1k XP (Gen 1).

Buff armor a little bit.
It cant be that a little Sword or a Pitchfork can damage ppl with Mail or better Armor...

And plz look at the blocking.
Sometimes the block is correct and the hits goes straight through the block...
There is something wrong with the hitboxes or perhaps with the animations... I dont know I am not a coder or something like that.
But you make a correct block and the hit still hits you. And I am talking with a latency from 30-50.
And the ghostrange, it cant be that you cant hit someone with a weapon 120+ and the shielder uses his 65+ weapon and still hits you.

Other stuff is nearly fine, perhaps a little tweaking.


Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: LLJK_Brolocaust on May 14, 2011, 01:14:06 AM
Despite the amount of complaining on these boards and the amount that I've contributed I've gotta say the game is really well balanced at this point. I've played as all classes except horse archer and I've enjoyed all of them very much, however when I played a thrower 2 months ago I did feel overpowered. However it seems that the throwing class has gone from overpowered to seriously nerfed. I haven't played thrower since the patch but I feel really sorry for anybody who does, I can't imagine myself ever going back to that class with those ridiculous slot limits. My recommendation would be to make all throwing weapons 1 slot and each would come with this many projectiles:

Throwing lance: 1
Jarids: 2
Throwing lances: 2 or 3
Axes: 3
War darts: 5 or 6

and so on... I fell like this would be more balanced.   
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Nessaj on May 14, 2011, 01:16:38 AM
Nerf roofs

:)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: John on May 14, 2011, 01:22:06 AM
Can ONLY select up to 18, damn, jk.  But would be interesting to know results at the end.  Most things are balanced right now, except horses speed/maneuverability stilll pretty high.  Once the January patch nerfed levels and made 3 agility per riding it wasn't immediately an issue because of expensive upkeep, but with upkeep lowered in one of the hotfixes and people accumulating gold for months so cavalry definitely becoming an unbalancing factor.  pre-January you could dodge a lance with good enough athletics, but most people have far less athletics now with level cap so couching lances and lollancings are really easy kills.  Would not be surprised if cav kills have been steadily rising for past 2 months as a percentage of all kills.  They also have been getting fewer and fewer ranged counters so the dancing just out of range and then swooping in with high speed and maneuvarability and almost always a longer weapon except against bamboo spear, long spear, and pike has become quite common.

Uh, if you see a lancer soon enough to try to dodge, why don't you just block down?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Thovex on May 14, 2011, 01:24:02 AM
Sry dude, but this is pissing me of. Wanna nerf a alrdy nerfed 2h. Which even have some bugs with animatons. I dont see why, you can still see it as op.

Trying to save the 2h, just a little bit. Wanting to nerf alrdy nerfed shitty weapons... is just... meh.

Btw if you wanna put speed down on pole/2h, you rly gotta put down speed on 1h too. They are just freaking fast. Even with a big heavy shield, and they just have to right-click to block.

No matter what I try but I can never outspam you, 1h is supposed to be fast and light.

In most 1v1s you die as shielder since you bounce SO much even on some stupid medium armor, the only good hit my long espada has is a thrust trough the head because swings besides a good placed thrust or overhead are the only hits that go trough here.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 14, 2011, 01:46:21 AM
No matter what I try but I can never outspam you, 1h is supposed to be fast and light.

In most 1v1s you die as shielder since you bounce SO much even on some stupid medium armor, the only good hit my long espada has is a thrust trough the head because swings besides a good placed thrust or overhead are the only hits that go trough here.

You aint rly the most experienced shielder :P, specialy not compared to the time that i practiced and practiced mastering the 2h sword (DGS).
But trust me, join me on duel sometime, ill pick up a 1h and spam the hell out of a 2h.

Btw: i have 7 athletics, and i used it ALOT against shielders to do movement, and since you always have kinda heavy armor on, it just helps me and my movement.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 14, 2011, 02:00:48 AM
also, this vote is secret, please do not try to influence other people.

I highly recommend you lock any future threads like this, were voting is possible but not any comments.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Keshian on May 14, 2011, 02:05:39 AM
Uh, if you see a lancer soon enough to try to dodge, why don't you just block down?

LOL, I do, all the time, but thats like saying if a 2hander is swinging at you, hold up a shield, doesn't make a class somehow not OP just by blocking them (and by the way other than crushthrough weapons, lancers have the only UNBLOCKABLE attack - couched lance).  In actual combat, just go watch NA 100 server with 30-40% of the server going cavalry.  You can downblock the first cav, he tramples you, seccond cav following easily lances you.  Or the more common scenario, you downblock or use a pike all the way to an actual melee fight and as soon as you engage anyone they can turn their horse on a dime (arabian) or charge halfwaya cross the field in a few seconds (courser) and either couch you or lollance you while you are meleeing.

Most cavalry kills are not people being unaware but cavalry having much higher speed and maneuverability and a much longer weapon than most allowing them to take advantage and easily kill anyone engaged in melee.  When you are on a horse just skirt the edges of the fight see someone actually try to melee anyone and you can get there within 2 seconds and lance them in the back, its incredibly easy way to rack up 20, sometimes 30 kills on a map with minimal risk.  The supposed counter of get a pike also doesn't work in that scenario as you cant melee very well if you are using a pike or if you are meleeing  or trying to attack a different cavalry person, the same thing happens to you.

The main reason this is possible is because of the huge bonus the riding skill gives to speed and maneuverability, which wasn't horirble as long as there were few cav on the battlefield (just like when there were few throwers on field before january), but as people have acquired more gold, upkeep is more manageable for many using a horse and the imbalance becomes readily noticeable as they proliferate.  It was actually much easier to dodge a lance before January even though horses lost 2 speed because the riding skill requirement of 6 agility kept riding skill lower, but now with the average riding skill being half again as high as it used to be it actually made horses faster and more maneuverable with 2 less speed stats.  Most lances outrange all but the longest polearms (think pikeman but with much greater mobility and a much larger speed bonus), so unless they are really average or bad they will hit you before you strike their horse and downblocking doesn't make them go away they just spin a 180 and hit you when you are meleeing or facing a different horseman.

The best evidence is just watch most fights nowadays and the practical reality of any map with even remotely flat terrain, inevitably cav completely dominate the battlefield every round.  Don't look at your own self as a horseman but how it actually plays out ina  balancing or unbalancing role in large group fights with multiple cavalry.  Inevitably, individual cav don't think speed/maneuvarbility need to be reduced, but thats never the whole picture from agame balancing perspective.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 14, 2011, 02:12:48 AM
i chose "leave everything as it is" because the poll state only the DAMAGE factor with in my opinion is well balanced.

besides that, jarids and throwing lances are no more. i don't mean there are less jarids around. there aren't. the slots thing is good but restricting a thrower with only a pike/poleaxe/voulge/any 2slots melee and a pack of 3 jarids is imo a heavy nerf.

my main is a twohander but i have to say that now the damage is pretty good as it is. sword stabs still do damage without instakilling everything. (and they still instakill to the head)
mallet is fine. it crushthru in a balanced way. needs to be holded and in precise distance to pass the block.

poleaxes (german, elegant and the similar poleaxe) have imo too much thrust compared to other pikes.

only thing i can't get is why the elite scimitar still have that speed with that phantom reach and that damage. the spamitar/huscarl combo is still the same... so i think must be something wrong.

overall imo the game is balanced.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tydeus on May 14, 2011, 02:15:26 AM
After reading some posts from other people, I demand a "buff xp" poll option!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Rangerbob on May 14, 2011, 02:23:02 AM
I'd like to add a buff xp as a poll question too.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ManOfWar on May 14, 2011, 02:24:17 AM
After reading some posts from other people, I demand a "buff xp" poll option!


hhelll yesssss
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: cilerc on May 14, 2011, 02:24:57 AM
The polearms are getting a litttle too good.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Rangerbob on May 14, 2011, 02:28:36 AM
They do more damage at the same speed as 2 handers and good lord the polearm stun is nasty in the middle of a fight.  Not to mention everyone with polearms now carries a pike and a bec which is more annoying than you can imagine.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: John on May 14, 2011, 03:30:02 AM
LOL, I do, all the time, but thats like saying if a 2hander is swinging at you, hold up a shield, doesn't make a class somehow not OP just by blocking them

Oh my comment didn't warrant such a response. I was just imagining you standing in the middle of a field somewhere, watching a horse charging at you, then trying to jump out of the way without holding a block and it made me laugh.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Blackstone on May 14, 2011, 03:39:50 AM
Overall well balanced.

Once stunned it is extremely difficult to counter the next consecutive blows, but overall the fights seem more balanced now.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Uhtred_III_of_Bebbanburg on May 14, 2011, 04:13:32 AM
May I say that it is likely the average player will vote to buff their most used playstyle and nerf their natural counter.

Ya gotta do, what ya gotta do!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: SHinOCk on May 14, 2011, 05:33:08 AM
i wish the exp would be as it was before those last couple patches... I think it was a big blow for a portion of the community that was actually playing like crazy to stack those gens and be able to slack a little bit afterward but still be able to change spec more than once every 3 weeks(random numbers, takes me like 2 weeks, maybe a bit more), anyway that's how i see it. I don't care as much about the heirlooms, but i do care about the fact that i put around 600hrs in that mod over an unhealthy amount of time (lol) to be able to have some diversity hopefully be able to swap builds every 3-5 days before i get bored with the spec I'm currently using.

Keep in mind that this is not a rant but just an opinion/suggestion. I can say for sure that it did not drive me away from the game cause i really love the combat  but the deception was and is such that i am not willing to put so much time/interest into the game
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gamerofthegame on May 14, 2011, 05:59:44 AM
I voted, but also here is something else; Buff AGI builds.

Right now it would appear that high STR builds actually swing and attack faster then their AGI counterparts, all the while wearing their heavy stuff. Which is down right weird, especially when I, personally, am pushing 180 WPF with a katana while wearing about 10 weight in equipment, total.

Additionally, I recommend buffing Athletics, or at least the acceleration. Mount and blade has a strange physics engine, so if you even glance at something that isn't flat you lose a lot of speed, everyone functionally running at the same speed over such terrain as a result. It's silly.

Additionally, having AGI be the ones who swing fast would be nice; Consider STR to be ye olde damage dealers and tanks while AGI the speedy rogues. AGI builds are largely confined to light armor to keep their bonuses going and, additionally, have shit health. (STR and IF give you health, which... AGI builds do not have.) Throwing them a slashyslashy bone would be nice.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Rangerbob on May 14, 2011, 06:40:01 AM
I voted, but also here is something else; Buff AGI builds.

Right now it would appear that high STR builds actually swing and attack faster then their AGI counterparts, all the while wearing their heavy stuff. Which is down right weird, especially when I, personally, am pushing 180 WPF with a katana while wearing about 10 weight in equipment, total.

Additionally, I recommend buffing Athletics, or at least the acceleration. Mount and blade has a strange physics engine, so if you even glance at something that isn't flat you lose a lot of speed, everyone functionally running at the same speed over such terrain as a result. It's silly.

Additionally, having AGI be the ones who swing fast would be nice; Consider STR to be ye olde damage dealers and tanks while AGI the speedy rogues. AGI builds are largely confined to light armor to keep their bonuses going and, additionally, have shit health. (STR and IF give you health, which... AGI builds do not have.) Throwing them a slashyslashy bone would be nice.

Strength users don't really swing faster. Its just mechanics.  The reason to go agi is not for swing speed its for athletics.  The top end players that go agi are good because of their footwork and not their ability to spam.  Its a game basic game mechanic that if both players are standing still and you block a swing you can always counterattack.  Thats why if you're blocked by a long maul even using a side sword he can counterattack you with an overhand.  The reason people are able to get 2 swings in on you is footwork.  He's moving closer to you away from the side you're swinging at him from therefore he can hit you before your swing hits.  The way to counter this proper footwork keeping him in front of you and learning how to block.

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: MountedRhader on May 14, 2011, 07:28:03 AM
I have no complaints. I love cRPG no matter what freakish zombie baby it may turn out to be. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lech on May 14, 2011, 08:18:13 AM
LOL, I do, all the time, but thats like saying if a 2hander is swinging at you, hold up a shield, doesn't make a class somehow not OP just by blocking them (and by the way other than crushthrough weapons, lancers have the only UNBLOCKABLE attack - couched lance).  In actual combat, just go watch NA 100 server with 30-40% of the server going cavalry.  You can downblock the first cav, he tramples you, seccond cav following easily lances you.  Or the more common scenario, you downblock or use a pike all the way to an actual melee fight and as soon as you engage anyone they can turn their horse on a dime (arabian) or charge halfwaya cross the field in a few seconds (courser) and either couch you or lollance you while you are meleeing.

Most cavalry kills are not people being unaware but cavalry having much higher speed and maneuverability and a much longer weapon than most allowing them to take advantage and easily kill anyone engaged in melee.  When you are on a horse just skirt the edges of the fight see someone actually try to melee anyone and you can get there within 2 seconds and lance them in the back, its incredibly easy way to rack up 20, sometimes 30 kills on a map with minimal risk.  The supposed counter of get a pike also doesn't work in that scenario as you cant melee very well if you are using a pike or if you are meleeing  or trying to attack a different cavalry person, the same thing happens to you.

The main reason this is possible is because of the huge bonus the riding skill gives to speed and maneuverability, which wasn't horirble as long as there were few cav on the battlefield (just like when there were few throwers on field before january), but as people have acquired more gold, upkeep is more manageable for many using a horse and the imbalance becomes readily noticeable as they proliferate.  It was actually much easier to dodge a lance before January even though horses lost 2 speed because the riding skill requirement of 6 agility kept riding skill lower, but now with the average riding skill being half again as high as it used to be it actually made horses faster and more maneuverable with 2 less speed stats.  Most lances outrange all but the longest polearms (think pikeman but with much greater mobility and a much larger speed bonus), so unless they are really average or bad they will hit you before you strike their horse and downblocking doesn't make them go away they just spin a 180 and hit you when you are meleeing or facing a different horseman.

The best evidence is just watch most fights nowadays and the practical reality of any map with even remotely flat terrain, inevitably cav completely dominate the battlefield every round.  Don't look at your own self as a horseman but how it actually plays out ina  balancing or unbalancing role in large group fights with multiple cavalry.  Inevitably, individual cav don't think speed/maneuvarbility need to be reduced, but thats never the whole picture from agame balancing perspective.

Well said!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Yachdiel on May 14, 2011, 09:25:12 AM
I feel like more polearms should have a unbalanced attribute. And some swingy spears should have cut damage, or do more damage when thrusted. One handers should get some love aswell as bows, besides the Long Bow of course.

Oh and 2H is outrageous
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: PhantomZero on May 14, 2011, 09:52:46 AM
Well said!

Well said for someone who wants to lay waste to all before him. Why must you think of not the single cavalryman, but the cavalry as a whole?

Why do you think of yourself as the lone warrior? If infantry were in a group, they would be much safer from cavalry.

If a two-hander is swinging at you, hold up your shield, and let your teammate bash in his skull! It does not matter if you get the kill, only that you win, for the multiplier.

If an archer is shooting at you, and you have no shield, hide behind someone who does! Or ask a horseman to assist you while you distract the archer.

Cavalry can only bump into one or two people before being stopped, even without a pike.

When 10 archers get together, and focus their fire, Cavalry gets decimated. 10 two handers will tear through almost any defense. 10 crossbowmen will reduce armored men to scrap. 10 spearmen will keep anyone at bay, 10 1h swordsmen will swarm any foe.

Why must you think of only cavalry when they act as a group? Cavalry act together because you learn very early on, that a lone cav at the start of the battle is mincemeat. It is time for everyone else to learn this lesson, and act together if they want to win a battle.

You talk about cav ignoring the full picture, but it is Kesh who ignores it, and would be happy to see cavalry gone from the game, or limited to only 3 per team.

Cavalry is heavily dependent upon the map terrain and composition of the enemy force. In addition, a cavalryman is also heavily dependent upon his horse, a great expense. Cav is forced to spend less on armor and secondary weapons as he must spend all of it on his horse, maybe a shield, and lance, if he equips himself fully, he will quickly run out of money. If the horseman loses his horse he is usually swarmed and beaten to death, and if not, he may find himself inadequately equipped to fight on foot for someone at his level.

As cavalry becomes more popular, both teams will have similar numbers of cavalry, thus balancing it out. Having many of one type working together on a team will always defeat an opposing team without the correct counter or teamwork. This is also why many people are upset with the "banner balance" mechanic.

You might say "You can't balance this game depending upon people to work together!" but that is stupid, what about Strategus? Are there going to be two sets of rules for balance?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: DrKronic on May 14, 2011, 10:42:51 AM
cool man, I actually think melee is basically balanced better than its been, anytime I see someone good now it doesn't matter what they use 1h/2h/pole I've even seen archers rape(this guy called nicotine lol) anyhow powwa to the people@@!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: polkafranzi on May 14, 2011, 11:31:09 AM
Well said for someone who wants to lay waste to all before him. Why must you think of not the single cavalryman, but the cavalry as a whole?

Why do you think of yourself as the lone warrior? If infantry were in a group, they would be much safer from cavalry.

If a two-hander is swinging at you, hold up your shield, and let your teammate bash in his skull! It does not matter if you get the kill, only that you win, for the multiplier.

If an archer is shooting at you, and you have no shield, hide behind someone who does! Or ask a horseman to assist you while you distract the archer.

Cavalry can only bump into one or two people before being stopped, even without a pike.

When 10 archers get together, and focus their fire, Cavalry gets decimated. 10 two handers will tear through almost any defense. 10 crossbowmen will reduce armored men to scrap. 10 spearmen will keep anyone at bay, 10 1h swordsmen will swarm any foe.

Why must you think of only cavalry when they act as a group? Cavalry act together because you learn very early on, that a lone cav at the start of the battle is mincemeat. It is time for everyone else to learn this lesson, and act together if they want to win a battle.

You talk about cav ignoring the full picture, but it is Kesh who ignores it, and would be happy to see cavalry gone from the game, or limited to only 3 per team.

Cavalry is heavily dependent upon the map terrain and composition of the enemy force. In addition, a cavalryman is also heavily dependent upon his horse, a great expense. Cav is forced to spend less on armor and secondary weapons as he must spend all of it on his horse, maybe a shield, and lance, if he equips himself fully, he will quickly run out of money. If the horseman loses his horse he is usually swarmed and beaten to death, and if not, he may find himself inadequately equipped to fight on foot for someone at his level.

As cavalry becomes more popular, both teams will have similar numbers of cavalry, thus balancing it out. Having many of one type working together on a team will always defeat an opposing team without the correct counter or teamwork. This is also why many people are upset with the "banner balance" mechanic.

You might say "You can't balance this game depending upon people to work together!" but that is stupid, what about Strategus? Are there going to be two sets of rules for balance?

Well said!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: bosco on May 14, 2011, 11:35:59 AM
In addition, even a peasant with a pike can stop an armored horse that's charging at full speed, which leaves it open to get ganged.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Beauchamp on May 14, 2011, 11:37:40 AM
1st - i think by slot system the throwers (hybrids) were nerfed a lot already. and i heard throwing received even some additional nerf, that was probably totally uneccessary. at least if i see everybody using only wardarts, than there is something wrong with high tier throwing stuff.

2nd - buff charge damage of heavy horses

other than that the game is fine imo. slot system idea was brilliant btw.

p.s. fix the banner balance, its more important than some detailed item tweaking and its still not working as it should (but its another topic).
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Native_ATS on May 14, 2011, 11:40:03 AM
throwing was way over nerffed, took lances form 12 to 2....
all throwing ammo was droped, so less ammo for 2 slots...
all throwing weapons where nerffed in damg...(even rocks.... and darts)
throwing wont go past 9pt since you cant get enough wpf to throw well...
takes 3jarids at 9pt to kill a man... thats your whole stack... if you miss once your dead, or if u hit a sheild its all over...
maybe you can get someone who can blance them right? so far the team might think that they are some what usefull but they are not at all, was way over nerffed  :|
Ps: buff gen xp plz... maybe cap it at 2000 at x1?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Penchik on May 14, 2011, 11:53:10 AM
Nefr the things that kill me! Buff the things I use!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ShinySpoons on May 14, 2011, 01:04:31 PM
Everything generally seems fine. however, throwing may have been overnerfed. As it stands now, there's little reason justifying points in power throw rather than more stats or other skills.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Dioxete on May 14, 2011, 01:18:14 PM
voted for polearms because is the most I use, then is the most i Know.
Some polearms got umbalanced and Serious damage nerfed, Or damage nerfed or unbalanced, but not both at the time.
Sheated I think is ok, but seems bugged the hit point most of the time for this weapons.
There's something shared between 2handed and pole, I don't understand why the tooooo much str requirement for hammer and the slot use, again 1 of this things but not both.
Rly hard nerfed.

By the way, heavy lance got rly nerfed, now light lance is way better, it's worthless the range of the heavy lance if you have 1 point less damage and a lot of speed less.
No way that HEAVY lance do less damage than LIGHT :/

FYI: sorry for the bad english ;:D
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 14, 2011, 01:27:37 PM
Well said for someone who wants to lay waste to all before him. Why must you think of not the single cavalryman, but the cavalry as a whole?

Why do you think of yourself as the lone warrior? If infantry were in a group, they would be much safer from cavalry.

If a two-hander is swinging at you, hold up your shield, and let your teammate bash in his skull! It does not matter if you get the kill, only that you win, for the multiplier.

If an archer is shooting at you, and you have no shield, hide behind someone who does! Or ask a horseman to assist you while you distract the archer.

Cavalry can only bump into one or two people before being stopped, even without a pike.

When 10 archers get together, and focus their fire, Cavalry gets decimated. 10 two handers will tear through almost any defense. 10 crossbowmen will reduce armored men to scrap. 10 spearmen will keep anyone at bay, 10 1h swordsmen will swarm any foe.

Why must you think of only cavalry when they act as a group? Cavalry act together because you learn very early on, that a lone cav at the start of the battle is mincemeat. It is time for everyone else to learn this lesson, and act together if they want to win a battle.

You talk about cav ignoring the full picture, but it is Kesh who ignores it, and would be happy to see cavalry gone from the game, or limited to only 3 per team.

Cavalry is heavily dependent upon the map terrain and composition of the enemy force. In addition, a cavalryman is also heavily dependent upon his horse, a great expense. Cav is forced to spend less on armor and secondary weapons as he must spend all of it on his horse, maybe a shield, and lance, if he equips himself fully, he will quickly run out of money. If the horseman loses his horse he is usually swarmed and beaten to death, and if not, he may find himself inadequately equipped to fight on foot for someone at his level.

As cavalry becomes more popular, both teams will have similar numbers of cavalry, thus balancing it out. Having many of one type working together on a team will always defeat an opposing team without the correct counter or teamwork. This is also why many people are upset with the "banner balance" mechanic.

You might say "You can't balance this game depending upon people to work together!" but that is stupid, what about Strategus? Are there going to be two sets of rules for balance?

Indeed, well said. Taking the "I pwn everyone anytime" situation as the reference of balance is ignoring the full picture. Although it's tempting to consider it's balanced to murder everyone with ease when you were used to it in previous versions.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Camaris on May 14, 2011, 01:29:59 PM
Leave everything as is. (overrides all other options)

i like current balance
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: kinngrimm on May 14, 2011, 01:30:37 PM
(click to show/hide)
+1

(click to show/hide)
+1, but for slightly different reason, as the armor got buffed and the damaged of weapons overall got nerved, all this seems to speak to go for strength builds, as with additional PS they do on a regular base less glancing and more damage and in this sense aren't that much effected from the changes.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Momo on May 14, 2011, 03:20:18 PM
+1
+1, but for slightly different reason, as the armor got buffed and the damaged of weapons overall got nerved, all this seems to speak to go for strength builds, as with additional PS they do on a regular base less glancing and more damage and in this sense aren't that much effected from the changes.

Then, high agi builds should glance much MORE than str builds, heavy armor will be actually useful, I like that idea.. atm it's pretty lame that the small 1 handers are cutting trough my 50 armor without any problem, and poles+2hs are glancing more often on me than 1 handers lol..
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 14, 2011, 04:04:09 PM
I voted, but also here is something else; Buff AGI builds.

Right now it would appear that high STR builds actually swing and attack faster then their AGI counterparts, all the while wearing their heavy stuff. Which is down right weird, especially when I, personally, am pushing 180 WPF with a katana while wearing about 10 weight in equipment, total.

Additionally, I recommend buffing Athletics, or at least the acceleration. Mount and blade has a strange physics engine, so if you even glance at something that isn't flat you lose a lot of speed, everyone functionally running at the same speed over such terrain as a result. It's silly.

Additionally, having AGI be the ones who swing fast would be nice; Consider STR to be ye olde damage dealers and tanks while AGI the speedy rogues. AGI builds are largely confined to light armor to keep their bonuses going and, additionally, have shit health. (STR and IF give you health, which... AGI builds do not have.) Throwing them a slashyslashy bone would be nice.

I would say exactly the opposite. Agistacking + hard hitting long polearm = instawin. Just turn around your opponent spamming the swing from the opposite direction. Super cheap "footwork" that will work in 80% of cases. And you can say that about nearly all 2h weapons. Only 1h are forced to spend some points in str further than their reqs because they can't hit hard enough not to bounce all the time (with swords btw). If you think you aren't fast with 6 points more agi than your opponent, you don't use it right. I think strength should be buffed and agi nerfed (nerfing the ability to turn around and to accelerate faster).
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: kinngrimm on May 14, 2011, 05:40:20 PM
Then, high agi builds should glance much MORE than str builds, heavy armor will be actually useful, I like that idea.. atm it's pretty lame that the small 1 handers are cutting trough my 50 armor without any problem, and poles+2hs are glancing more often on me than 1 handers lol..
they do atm i guess, but for sure only a developer can say who knows the exact calculations and i dont have a beef with that, but in return give the agi whores a buff on agi so they can compensate that disadvantage with either movement or weapon speed.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ThePoopy on May 14, 2011, 06:10:11 PM
Then, high agi builds should glance much MORE than str builds, heavy armor will be actually useful, I like that idea.. atm it's pretty lame that the small 1 handers are cutting trough my 50 armor without any problem, and poles+2hs are glancing more often on me than 1 handers lol..
+1

glancing rate need to be increased in early and late in swings/stabs (all weps)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Whalen207 on May 14, 2011, 07:40:38 PM
Everyone is going to nerf Cav...

 :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry: :cry:  :cry:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: 7000bc on May 14, 2011, 07:47:42 PM
No nerf EVERYTHING slot?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on May 14, 2011, 08:40:16 PM
Ive always thought some armour could do with a slight buff, nothing too fancy as heavily armoured foes with ironflesh are still pretty nasty, but even though I hardly ever wear heavy armour ive never really had trouble vs it.

As for throwing, I dont mind what you do these days, just leave stones alone  :mrgreen:.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Heroin on May 14, 2011, 09:33:50 PM
May I say that it is likely the average player will vote to buff their most used playstyle and nerf their natural counter. I don't see how this will give you any accurate data, but welcome the chance to offer honest feedback nonetheless.

I didn't do this. I didn't vote to nerf anything at all, actually. I voted to buff the following, which I feel were overnerfed in various ways: Two Handers, Throwing, Crossbows, and Shields.

Extended explanations of each to follow:

Two Handers - Essentially, the role they are meant to fill is that of shock troops, meant to do great damage at long melee range. With the recent nerf to 2h swords thrust damage, I don't think they fill that role well. I did some quick comparing of stats between 1h and 2h, and currently 1h sword thrusts do more damage than a larger, 2 handed weapons thrust. The BEST thrusting weapons from both the 1h and 2h categories are, respectively, the Espada Eslavona, and the German greatsword. If each are heirloomed 3x, the espada does 32 pierce, while the german greatsword does only 27. This is a fairly significant difference in thrust damage, considering that the role of the two hander is to do more damage with longer reach than 1 handers, giving up the defensive benefit of a shield. Additionally, many of the specialty weapons that two-handers had have been nerfed and/or reclassed into something different. Pretty much all of the crush-through weapons have lost crush-through, with the exception of the very slow hammers, which have also been nerfed in weight. The only crush-through weapons left don't crush through often, and are not really good weapon options at the moment due to slow speeds, 2 slots, high weight(slows you down), unbalanced, and unreliable crushthrough. Some weapons, such as the bar mace, long iron mace, etc, have completely lost crushthrough, when a better option, in my opinion, would have been to simply lower their weight. Additionally, many of these weapons base damage has been nerfed on top of their losing a core component of their utility. All of this while maintaining the "unbalanced" flag makes these weapons a sucker's choice, imo.

Throwing was nerfed into uselessness. None of the throwing weapons that do decent damage are feasible to use without being a dedicated thrower. Even the ones that DO have "decent damage" don't kill people who aren't already hurt. A dedicated thrower doesn't get enough ammo to make any significant impact on a battle. Since this last patch, on a server with 100 people, I might see 2 throwers, and they don't do well. Even as a sidearm, it's not really very good, using the smaller throwing weapons. For instance, having power throw 2 and using snowflakes or war darts, the accuracy is still utter crap with 130 wpf in throwing, and when you DO hit, it doesn't really hurt much. There is absolutely no reason outside of style, at this point, to take any ranged weapon other than archery, which is currently in a good place, I think.

Most crossbows are actually in a fairly good place damage-wise, but I don't think the heavy xbow should take 2 slots. I'm on the fence as far as the arbalest goes. Having had a masterwork arbalest and 2x heirloomed bolts prior to the heirloom reset, I can comfortably say that the arbalest doesn't one-shot people with any regularity at the moment. It is also painfully slow to reload even with 155 wpf in xbows. Since that is the case, and you will likely have to shoot someone twice, or finish them off in melee, it makes little sense to use an arbalest or heavy xbow currently. You will get the same 2-shot result with a normal or light xbow most of the time, and be able to carry a 1h+shield, or a 2 slot weapon for melee. My suggested changes would be to make the heavy xbow take up 1 slot, keeping it's damage as it is now, and buff the damage of the sniper xbow to make it more likely to one-shot if you are going to keep the 10 second reload and 2 slot(3 with ammo) requirement. This solution makes heavy xbow useful still as a sidearm, and allows the "arbalest" to be a valid option for dedicated xbowmen.

Shields were recently nerfed to get less HP from heirlooms. Personally, I think this nerf was unnecessary and only caused by the overnerfing of the 2 handers anti-shield toolbox. If 2 handers are fixed, and damage of 2 handers balanced against 1 handers(of which 2 handers should have higher damage across the board than 1h) I believe this nerf could be reverted without shields being "OP".  A shield is supposed to be the primary advantage of being a 1h user. As long as there are a good number of anti-shield options available, and 1 handers do notably less damage than 2h or polearms(no shield), then it is not a problem to allow some shields to be fairly resiliant, and resistant to breakage.

So anyhow, thats my 45 cents. If you managed to read my opinion on all of it, I thank you. I know I am a bit long-winded.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hirlok on May 14, 2011, 10:26:57 PM
As for throwing, I dont mind what you do these days, just leave stones alone  :mrgreen:.

+1 - dem rocks need some luv.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Torp on May 15, 2011, 12:03:18 AM
i was just about to choose 'buff polearms' after the polearm and lance nerf... but then i realized that everything is actually balanced atm... couldnt find a single item that was eitehr OP or sucked... the only thing i would like to buff, is heirlooms
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 15, 2011, 12:16:07 AM
I didn't do this. I didn't vote to nerf anything at all, actually. I voted to buff the following, which I feel were overnerfed in various ways: Two Handers, Throwing, Crossbows, and Shields.

Extended explanations of each to follow:

Two Handers - Essentially, the role they are meant to fill is that of shock troops, meant to do great damage at long melee range. With the recent nerf to 2h swords thrust damage, I don't think they fill that role well. I did some quick comparing of stats between 1h and 2h, and currently 1h sword thrusts do more damage than a larger, 2 handed weapons thrust. The BEST thrusting weapons from both the 1h and 2h categories are, respectively, the Espada Eslavona, and the German greatsword. If each are heirloomed 3x, the espada does 32 pierce, while the german greatsword does only 27. This is a fairly significant difference in thrust damage, considering that the role of the two hander is to do more damage with longer reach than 1 handers, giving up the defensive benefit of a shield. Additionally, many of the specialty weapons that two-handers had have been nerfed and/or reclassed into something different. Pretty much all of the crush-through weapons have lost crush-through, with the exception of the very slow hammers, which have also been nerfed in weight. The only crush-through weapons left don't crush through often, and are not really good weapon options at the moment due to slow speeds, 2 slots, high weight(slows you down), unbalanced, and unreliable crushthrough. Some weapons, such as the bar mace, long iron mace, etc, have completely lost crushthrough, when a better option, in my opinion, would have been to simply lower their weight. Additionally, many of these weapons base damage has been nerfed on top of their losing a core component of their utility. All of this while maintaining the "unbalanced" flag makes these weapons a sucker's choice, imo.

Throwing was nerfed into uselessness. None of the throwing weapons that do decent damage are feasible to use without being a dedicated thrower. Even the ones that DO have "decent damage" don't kill people who aren't already hurt. A dedicated thrower doesn't get enough ammo to make any significant impact on a battle. Since this last patch, on a server with 100 people, I might see 2 throwers, and they don't do well. Even as a sidearm, it's not really very good, using the smaller throwing weapons. For instance, having power throw 2 and using snowflakes or war darts, the accuracy is still utter crap with 130 wpf in throwing, and when you DO hit, it doesn't really hurt much. There is absolutely no reason outside of style, at this point, to take any ranged weapon other than archery, which is currently in a good place, I think.

Most crossbows are actually in a fairly good place damage-wise, but I don't think the heavy xbow should take 2 slots. I'm on the fence as far as the arbalest goes. Having had a masterwork arbalest and 2x heirloomed bolts prior to the heirloom reset, I can comfortably say that the arbalest doesn't one-shot people with any regularity at the moment. It is also painfully slow to reload even with 155 wpf in xbows. Since that is the case, and you will likely have to shoot someone twice, or finish them off in melee, it makes little sense to use an arbalest or heavy xbow currently. You will get the same 2-shot result with a normal or light xbow most of the time, and be able to carry a 1h+shield, or a 2 slot weapon for melee. My suggested changes would be to make the heavy xbow take up 1 slot, keeping it's damage as it is now, and buff the damage of the sniper xbow to make it more likely to one-shot if you are going to keep the 10 second reload and 2 slot(3 with ammo) requirement. This solution makes heavy xbow useful still as a sidearm, and allows the "arbalest" to be a valid option for dedicated xbowmen.

Shields were recently nerfed to get less HP from heirlooms. Personally, I think this nerf was unnecessary and only caused by the overnerfing of the 2 handers anti-shield toolbox. If 2 handers are fixed, and damage of 2 handers balanced against 1 handers(of which 2 handers should have higher damage across the board than 1h) I believe this nerf could be reverted without shields being "OP".  A shield is supposed to be the primary advantage of being a 1h user. As long as there are a good number of anti-shield options available, and 1 handers do notably less damage than 2h or polearms(no shield), then it is not a problem to allow some shields to be fairly resiliant, and resistant to breakage.

So anyhow, thats my 45 cents. If you managed to read my opinion on all of it, I thank you. I know I am a bit long-winded.

those are very good points. as a 2handerm to use thrust effectively  doing some damage (only 24 pierce on my claymore), i need to use it when running against an opponent that runs toward me, achieving a good speed bonus.

poleaxes thrust damage, is what two handed pierce swords should do. greatsword and german greatsword should match the elegant and german poleaxes in terms of thrust in my opinion.

with all these damage nerfs, we need to aim for the head. and is easier for a 1handed to aim for the head with a left swing while a twohander need to raise the camera in the correct place to strike the head.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Rhaelys on May 15, 2011, 12:41:00 AM
those are very good points. as a 2handerm to use thrust effectively  doing some damage (only 24 pierce on my claymore), i need to use it when running against an opponent that runs toward me, achieving a good speed bonus.

poleaxes thrust damage, is what two handed pierce swords should do. greatsword and german greatsword should match the elegant and german poleaxes in terms of thrust in my opinion.

with all these damage nerfs, we need to aim for the head. and is easier for a 1handed to aim for the head with a left swing while a twohander need to raise the camera in the correct place to strike the head.

...So you want matching thrust damage on top of a superior animation (speed and reach)?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 15, 2011, 02:40:12 AM
...So you want matching thrust damage on top of a superior animation (speed and reach)?

Superior speed and reach? not rly, seen polearms speed and lenght? Tested against a polearm btw, with my danish greatsword. It had more range with swings, even when i did stab.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Seawied on May 15, 2011, 05:58:30 AM
...So you want matching thrust damage on top of a superior animation (speed and reach)?
on an item that requires 2 slots, and 2 hands, ergo no shield? Sounds fair to me.

I don't use two handers btw. I wasn't aware of the 2h thrust nerf, otherwise I would have voted for it to be buffed as well.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Siboire on May 15, 2011, 06:38:33 AM
Like said by others, horses stats are cool right now but the price for upkeep is just too much, that's the only thing that should be changed about horses IMO.

Buff 1-handers speed a bit when using shield, right now 2-handers and polarmers can spam ur ass but you can't do anything beside hide behind ur shield until it breaks and then you die. And it's true about the shield weight, seems kinda high for a piece of wood to be heavier then some huge 2-handers or poleaxes and such...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Shablagoo on May 15, 2011, 06:56:17 AM
Fixing throwing might be all that's really needed since that's already an indirect nerf to cav and 2h/polearm spammers.    I wouldn't mind something that made plate wearers slightly less than godlike but I'd settle for just throwing. 
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 15, 2011, 07:51:10 AM
Buff Athletics!

believe it or not I did not vote to buff shields :O I think they are good where they are :D I just found out that they made shield heirlooming gimp in the last lil patch. why would you gimp my shield? it was fine the way it was! gimme back my shield! it keeps breaking now!

Edit:
I support increased XP rate for all. It gets painful slow with the current grind. Why not up the base from 1k to like 1500 or even 1250... then you can keep the current gen bonus where it is... makes things a bit more forgiving on low gens, and helps the higher gens a bit too. Maxing out at 2-3k at x1 isnt bad either.

and an observation... 90% of experienced players are strength builds these days. and like 50% are 30 str. athletics needs to mean more. I play with 8 athletics and i have trouble out manuevring all the str builds sometimes. I would like to say buffing agis effect on swing speed would be good... but it might also obsolete str builds in 1v1 situations if it breaks the swing block swing block tempo... if you can just swing non stop and the other player cant interupt then it would be quite broken indeed... the damage reduction on weps really hurt 1H agi builds as well. I run around in gambeson with a masterwork grosser messer, I do alright against medium armours... but it takes me 3-6 hits to kill people, meanwhile most players kill me in 1-2 hits. I have all of 12 str and 1 if, 44hp. all these 30str 10if guys are sitting on 80hp and get to run around in plate mail. they dont give a shit if you hit em a few times. i dont mind if str builds take a bit more effort to bring down, but it sucks with the glancing since you can easily get killed by a tin can who spams mindlessly without even trying to block, cause if you glance even once, his swing keeps coming and you die. oh and i think 1h need some love in the damage department (at least the cut weapons... pierce and blunt are ok) but maybe some of them have too much reach. The disadvantage of 1H is supposed to be shorter reach, but some of these swords seem to out range poles and 2hs because of the animations. much as I hate when people just backpedal and swing from out of my reach (my wep only has 85 range), its kind of the way it should be...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Niemand on May 15, 2011, 09:28:33 AM
1 choice for me: buff speed of 1hers. ^^


ART YOU INSANE!? go to the duelserver and fight wolves kinngrimm... buff 1h-speed? you sick asshole. He is already too fast to be blocked by an average blocker. leave 1h as it is.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 15, 2011, 11:45:23 AM
1h should not get more speed, they are freaking fast, even with 1 wpf. How can you seorusly say they need a buff?

And for god sake, stop putting 2h and polearm in the same group. They arent the same, at all!. Polearms is kinda op atm. But 2h swords suffered alot because of recent patch nerfs, polearm didnt.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Segd on May 15, 2011, 12:17:57 PM
Buff thrown - too low number of them
Buff crossbow - need to buff effect from wpf
Nerf two handed weapons - too many of them
Nerf polearms - too many of them

P.S. My chars: 1h, archer, 2h & pole.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Phyrex on May 15, 2011, 12:19:07 PM
The difference(currently and in general) between two-handed and polearms are as following...

Two-Handed
- ...?

Polearm
- More damage.
- Better thrust.
- First strike with longer reach.
- Bonus against shields.
- Hit stun. Stagger effect when hit.
- Weapon stun, polearms are generally heavier.
- Horse stopping thrust.
- Cavalry equipment - lances.
- Anti-cav and support - pikes. Oh and lets not forget that you can thrust-curve around teammates and overhead through teammates on enemies.

I doubt two-handed has any edge at all, no reason to go two-handed, polearms is vastly superior in every way possible.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Byrdi on May 15, 2011, 12:19:31 PM
Nerf horse archers (add it to the poll aswell)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 15, 2011, 12:27:00 PM
1h should not get more speed, they are freaking fast, even with 1 wpf. How can you seorusly say they need a buff?

And for god sake, stop putting 2h and polearm in the same group. They arent the same, at all!. Polearms is kinda op atm. But 2h swords suffered alot because of recent patch nerfs, polearm didnt.

exactly. and should be the other way around as polearms gives you:

- LOT more versatility
- Stun
- side swings with better reach
- very few UNBALANCED weapons
- a single weapon class for CAVALRY and INFANTRY

while twohanded weapons are merely INFANTRY weapons and they should be like they was before. now 2handed round up is:

- twohanded weapons DONT stun
- only blockcrushing weapons are MALLET and GREAT MAUL (we had morningstars, barmaces, iron maces, mallets, great mauls..)
- thrust damage is the lowest compared to 1handed weapons and polearms
- shieldbreakers are all UNBALANCED and SHORT.
- only good slashers are CLAYMORE, FLAMBERGE and maybe MIAODAO
- best thrust sword is the german with a laughly 26 pierce.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gurnisson on May 15, 2011, 01:12:16 PM
Phyrex: Two-handers have a harder animation to block. That's about it.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Rhaelys on May 15, 2011, 01:13:45 PM
exactly. and should be the other way around as polearms gives you:

- side swings with better reach

This is flat out wrong.

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80 Not +80 anymore, but still incredibly long.

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

From: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.msg2872758.html#msg2872758

Superior speed and reach? not rly, seen polearms speed and lenght? Tested against a polearm btw, with my danish greatsword. It had more range with swings, even when i did stab.

Yes. I use a 141 reach poleaxe, and I get outranged by standard 120 range 2H thrusts. "Tested against a polearm" is vague and does little to support your argument. Were you testing against a glaive, with 160 reach? Of course you shouldn't outrange that. Although you would probably get the first hit in with a thrust anyway, in real combat.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 15, 2011, 02:08:32 PM
This is flat out wrong.

2h
Overhead = +15
Left-to-right = +17
Right-to-left = +13
Thrust = +80 Not +80 anymore, but still incredibly long.

2h Polearms
Overhead = -15
Left-to-right = -7
Right-to-left = -2
Thrust = +19

From: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,118906.msg2872758.html#msg2872758

Yes. I use a 141 reach poleaxe, and I get outranged by standard 120 range 2H thrusts. "Tested against a polearm" is vague and does little to support your argument. Were you testing against a glaive, with 160 reach? Of course you shouldn't outrange that. Although you would probably get the first hit in with a thrust anyway, in real combat.

well fought several GLA polearms. they outreach my highland claymore. maybe i'm wrong  :rolleyes:

poleaxe length                             141
long hafted blade length               153
long hafted knobbed mace length  133

also polearm can opener:

Bec de Corbin
weapon length: 120
weight: 2.8
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 93
weapon length: 120
thrust damage: 26 pierce
swing damage: 36 pierce
slots: 2

1handed can opener:

Steel Pick
weapon length: 64
weight: 2.3
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 64
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 33 pierce
slots: 1

twohanded can opener:

Morningstar
weapon length: 82
weight: 3.8
difficulty: 14
speed rating: 92
weapon length: 82
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 38 pierce
slots: 2
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cyclopsided on May 15, 2011, 03:24:30 PM
I put nerf cav -- but only one thing very specific.
Cav needs maneuverability lowered, but something else like HP should be increased in exchange for cav. or lower prices. Not a nerf, but a slight reworking.
But really, the game is well balanced right now and I love it. well done.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: San on May 15, 2011, 04:27:02 PM
I'd rather just buff the weak things.

Buff throwing
Balance Armor

Whatever's weak, buff to the level of 2h/cavalry/etc.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Memento_Mori on May 15, 2011, 05:03:56 PM
Get rid of 1 slot 2h or add more...
you don't have to read anything after that, that is the only thing I wanted to get across.

The archer weapon (langes messer) is running rampant , and it's a forced style of play on most 2h archers who don't want to negatively effect their archery skills whilst still using a 2h.
Either make more bastard weapons 1 slot or remove all 1 slot 2h, its not balanced and it doesn't make any sense to my reptilian brain xD

Do it for my character, Bow Samurai, who now runs around with 2 bags of bodkins, a strong bow, and a 2h.. a Langes Messer.. The most samurai weapon ever. Force his lazy ass to use a wakizashi, or give him more choices for 1 slot 2h.. Coz right now, there is no way I'd sacrifice a bag of arrows to use a katana over the langes messer.. xD & to top it all off, the langes messer IMO is a better weapon stats wise, you have an actual stab that hurts, more cut dmg than a bastard sword about the same length as a katana & just about the same speed as well.

Think about it this way, Bow Samurai would rather use a langes messer over a wakizashi simply because there is no negatives that could come from that choice, infact, only positives.


Totally unrelated, make the wakizashi 0 slots, maybe cost a little more, I want to be able to wear my 3 swords again. :C I miss it.
& maybe 0 slot wakizashi would be a choice over 1 slot 2h the langes messer.

Just my 2 cents, but this slot system is screwy and not doing it's job really other than stopping ladder spam on siege..
Only thing I think is a good idea about the slots thing is having to drop unsheathable weapons on the ground to switch weapons & 3 slots on a siege ladder to stop epic ladder spam wins on the Siege server, mostly though if you want to beat the slot system and still use a 2h.. Use a langes messer xD         Longbow(2), Bodkins(1), Langes Messer (1) or Arbalest(2), steel bolts (1), langes messer (1)

in conclusion, either more 1 slot 2h, or none at all please.
Atm the only 2hwep I see most 2h archers/xbow using is the langes messer, and it's kinda obvious why.

just my opinion, but 2h archers now have a forced style of play if they don't want to sacrifice arrows for no real benefit... Katana(2) warbow (2) .... or Warbow (2) Bodkin (1) Langes Messer (1)

/end wall of text about nothing
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ManOfWar on May 15, 2011, 05:23:57 PM
Apparently 1h needed a nerf, who was complaining???
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Waylit on May 15, 2011, 05:47:18 PM
I picked "Buff Xbow" and "Buff Archer" but I want to clarify that I don't think that any of the weapons combat stats need to change at all except for the slots.  Either the heavier Xbows/Bows should be dropped a slot, or the ammo for them should be dropped to 0 slots.  Ideally, I think that Xbow + 1h weap + 2slot shield should be possible.  They existed, were called pavisier, and were a significant part of the medieval battlefield.  It makes the most sense to me to make the bag of (now less quantity, too!) bolts that hangs on your hip could be 0 slots.  Or Bolts could be 0 and Steel Bolts 1 slot.  I understand that you want to limit the heavy armor + 2h + heavy xbow classes, but if you can carry two polearms, one in hands, one on back, I do not see why you can't do that same config with an Xbow and 2h, just with a little pack of bolts on your belt as well. 

There should be a penalty for carrying a lot of stuff, I just thing that it should have to do with weight instead of limiting how much stuff the guy can carry beyond M&Bs 4 item slots.  Perhaps to penalize the people carrying multiple weapons, there could be a minus to attack skills based on the extra weight of extra weapons.  So the dude with the 2h and Xbow swings slower because of that damned thing hanging on his back, and the bolts on his belt.  He can still choose to lug them around, but until he ditches them, he will be a less effective soldier.

EDIT: Also, any 2h that can also be used as a 1h should now be 1 slot.  The "fits on belt" rule.  Then that leaves all the big massive ones as 2 slot, and that makes sense to me.

Quote
Totally unrelated, make the wakizashi 0 slots, maybe cost a little more, I want to be able to wear my 3 swords again. :C I miss it.
& maybe 0 slot wakizashi would be a choice over 1 slot 2h the langes messer.

Wasn't that the main Samurai loadout?  Nodachi, Katana, and Wakizashi?  So if humans in real life carried something, but you can't in a video game, that seems backwards. 

In general, I like the weapon damages as is.  If anything, as a pike man, I think the Pike needs to go back to 280, because 300 seems a bit buggy.  I like the unsheathables (I'm having fun dropping my pike and picking it back up when needed heh, makes for more realistic and interesting gameplay).  It's just that the slot system seems too limiting.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 15, 2011, 06:42:39 PM
I know this poll is limited, it's just intended to give us a general idea.
To give you a helping hand in answering the topics, ask yourself this question:
buff <item class> - would I like the fact that every item in that class would get it's stats increased by 5%.
nerf <item class> - would I like the fact that every item in that class would get it's stats decreased by 5%.


that should give you a good idea about what to tick and what not.

your all saying buff this and that but dont change its stats..why the hell say buff it then?? most of you are whining about my 2h sword takes 2 slots waaaaah i cant carry other crap i wont use waah his weapon takes 1 slot why doesnt mine waah...ffs chadz says if you want a buff it will give a 5% stat  increase so stop talking about weapon slots going off topic
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Camaris on May 15, 2011, 06:49:27 PM
I picked "Buff Xbow" and "Buff Archer" but I want to clarify that I don't think that any of the weapons combat stats need to change at all except for the slots.  Either the heavier Xbows/Bows should be dropped a slot, or the ammo for them should be dropped to 0 slots.  Ideally, I think that Xbow + 1h weap + 2slot shield should be possible.  They existed, were called pavisier, and were a significant part of the medieval battlefield.  It makes the most sense to me to make the bag of (now less quantity, too!) bolts that hangs on your hip could be 0 slots.  Or Bolts could be 0 and Steel Bolts 1 slot.  I understand that you want to limit the heavy armor + 2h + heavy xbow classes, but if you can carry two polearms, one in hands, one on back, I do not see why you can't do that same config with an Xbow and 2h, just with a little pack of bolts on your belt as well. 

There should be a penalty for carrying a lot of stuff, I just thing that it should have to do with weight instead of limiting how much stuff the guy can carry beyond M&Bs 4 item slots.  Perhaps to penalize the people carrying multiple weapons, there could be a minus to attack skills based on the extra weight of extra weapons.  So the dude with the 2h and Xbow swings slower because of that damned thing hanging on his back, and the bolts on his belt.  He can still choose to lug them around, but until he ditches them, he will be a less effective soldier.

EDIT: Also, any 2h that can also be used as a 1h should now be 1 slot.  The "fits on belt" rule.  Then that leaves all the big massive ones as 2 slot, and that makes sense to me.

Wasn't that the main Samurai loadout?  Nodachi, Katana, and Wakizashi?  So if humans in real life carried something, but you can't in a video game, that seems backwards. 

In general, I like the weapon damages as is.  If anything, as a pike man, I think the Pike needs to go back to 280, because 300 seems a bit buggy.  I like the unsheathables (I'm having fun dropping my pike and picking it back up when needed heh, makes for more realistic and interesting gameplay).  It's just that the slot system seems too limiting.

Only solution i could see for 0 slot bolts are bad bolts with low amount of bolts in bag. Like 5-10 bad bolts.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Havoco on May 15, 2011, 07:38:56 PM
Gawd I need to stop reading forums.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Teeth on May 15, 2011, 08:25:36 PM
Buff agility, the benefits that agility points give you arent as good as strength benefits. The amount of high str builds running around now is ridiculous, strength is the way to go, agi should be buffed or str should be nerfed to allow a greater variety of effective builds.

The balance between weapon classes is great nowadays, so I voted for keep everything as it is.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: chief on May 16, 2011, 05:23:13 AM
Let me fix this for you, (slashed the things that are total bullshit, and put my comments in italics), I also added a few things.


exactly. and should be the other way around as polearms gives you:

POLEARMS
- LOT more versatility 2h weapons can stop a horse about as good as polearms, crush blocks and be good at 1 on 1, the one thing they're missing is full support weapons.
- Stun
- side swings with better reach
- very few UNBALANCED weapons
- a single weapon class for CAVALRY and INFANTRY

while twohanded weapons are merely INFANTRY weapons and they should be like they was before. now 2handed round up is:

- twohanded weapons DONT stun
- only blockcrushing weapons are MALLET and GREAT MAUL (we had morningstars, barmaces, iron maces, mallets, great mauls..) This one is just laughable, they have 2 of the 3 block crushing weapons in the game, and you say "only"?
- thrust damage is the lowest compared to 1handed weapons and polearms As it should be, try immitating the animation and see how awkward it is. you're also neglecting the fact that the new 2h thrust animation is almost instant.
- shieldbreakers are all UNBALANCED and SHORT. I'd consider any weapon with 40+ damage to be a shield breaker.
 - only good slashers are CLAYMORE, FLAMBERGE and maybe MIAODAO I loled.
- best thrust sword is the german with a laughly 26 pierce. 26 is still better than a lot of polearms and 1h weapons, again, they shouldn't be the best thrusting weapon.
- Biased animations that give them more speed and range than what the item stats say.
- Animations that allow long weapons to be effective while face hugging (polearms also have this problem). Really? why should a 5 foot long sword be a better close range weapon than a 1h mace?



If you can't tell, I voted to "nerf" 2h weapons, though I wouldn't call what I want a nerf. What I want is an animation fix.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Wildling on May 16, 2011, 05:31:27 AM
Well said for someone who wants to lay waste to all before him. Why must you think of not the single cavalryman, but the cavalry as a whole?

Why do you think of yourself as the lone warrior? If infantry were in a group, they would be much safer from cavalry.

If a two-hander is swinging at you, hold up your shield, and let your teammate bash in his skull! It does not matter if you get the kill, only that you win, for the multiplier.

If an archer is shooting at you, and you have no shield, hide behind someone who does! Or ask a horseman to assist you while you distract the archer.

Cavalry can only bump into one or two people before being stopped, even without a pike.

When 10 archers get together, and focus their fire, Cavalry gets decimated. 10 two handers will tear through almost any defense. 10 crossbowmen will reduce armored men to scrap. 10 spearmen will keep anyone at bay, 10 1h swordsmen will swarm any foe.

Why must you think of only cavalry when they act as a group? Cavalry act together because you learn very early on, that a lone cav at the start of the battle is mincemeat. It is time for everyone else to learn this lesson, and act together if they want to win a battle.

You talk about cav ignoring the full picture, but it is Kesh who ignores it, and would be happy to see cavalry gone from the game, or limited to only 3 per team.

Cavalry is heavily dependent upon the map terrain and composition of the enemy force. In addition, a cavalryman is also heavily dependent upon his horse, a great expense. Cav is forced to spend less on armor and secondary weapons as he must spend all of it on his horse, maybe a shield, and lance, if he equips himself fully, he will quickly run out of money. If the horseman loses his horse he is usually swarmed and beaten to death, and if not, he may find himself inadequately equipped to fight on foot for someone at his level.

As cavalry becomes more popular, both teams will have similar numbers of cavalry, thus balancing it out. Having many of one type working together on a team will always defeat an opposing team without the correct counter or teamwork. This is also why many people are upset with the "banner balance" mechanic.

You might say "You can't balance this game depending upon people to work together!" but that is stupid, what about Strategus? Are there going to be two sets of rules for balance?

This.


Also: What's up with shielders these days? I see few and few. It's basically archers and 2handers or polearms running around swining their apparently heavy weapons like they were lightsabres with feather hilts. They dominate.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Rangerbob on May 16, 2011, 06:55:13 AM
Pretty obvious you play on siege servers.  Battle servers are nothing but shields pikes and cav.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Momo on May 16, 2011, 12:52:13 PM
This.


Also: What's up with shielders these days? I see few and few. It's basically archers and 2handers or polearms running around swining their apparently heavy weapons like they were lightsabres with feather hilts. They dominate.

lol dude, did you play on battle? 70% of the players are shielders...(with that JOKE OP pick)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 16, 2011, 02:49:19 PM
Let me fix this for you, (slashed the things that are total bullshit, and put my comments in italics), I also added a few things.




If you can't tell, I voted to "nerf" 2h weapons, though I wouldn't call what I want a nerf. What I want is an animation fix.

man.. you really have a weird view of the world.

Quote
This one is just laughable, they have 2 of the 3 block crushing weapons in the game, and you say "only"?
<--- oh sure. give onehanders blockcrushing capabilites. i'm sure they'll like it when with the other arm they hold a shield. oh and archery don't have blockcrushing arrows. what a shame... why a great maul should blockcrush and a little wooden arrow can't? oh and give cavalry blockcrushing weapons too! oh wait.. couching isn't blockable. fair to me.

Quote
2h weapons can stop a horse about as good as polearms
you play in singleplayer? because in multiplayer, a not mentally retarded horseman, will not get stabbed by a 120 length sword. guess why cavalry run away from pikes and not from twohanders. i really want to know how your somehow faulty brain work.

Quote
As it should be, try immitating the animation and see how awkward it is. you're also neglecting the fact that the new 2h thrust animation is almost instant.
old animation wasn't good. the new one either.. why don't you fire up your favorite 3d animation software and show us a good one?

Quote
I'd consider any weapon with 40+ damage to be a shield breaker.

proof that you're a noob. MW claymore 46 cut, 7PS, 20+ hits for a reinforced steel shield. great axe UNBALANCED 10+ hits. german poleaxe not UNBALANCED 10+ hits.

Quote
26 is still better than a lot of polearms and 1h weapons, again, they shouldn't be the best thrusting weapon.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Quote
Animations that allow long weapons to be effective while face hugging (polearms also have this problem). Really? why should a 5 foot long sword be a better close range weapon than a 1h mace

i never saw a 1h mace bounce at facehug range. maces and picks are made for that. you should really smoke better stuff.
one of the few strong points of 2h. guess why... a sword have a blade with a cutting edge from the tip to the grip. a poleaxe don't. weird isn't it?

to preserve crpg balance, we should have the ability to give some advantages to these "special" players. we can give em +50% damage boost on their weapons... so they'll stop flooding the forums with tears.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Khurt on May 16, 2011, 03:13:05 PM
IMO shields need a little nerf. It's funny how a 30mm*30mm shield can automatically stop 99% of arrows.
On the other hand, buff steel shields to make them invulnerable to arrows.

I also think archers need some love: add big quivers with 30/40 arrows each (according to type). They will use only one slot, but they will will require a high weapon master skill value (5-6). Actually full archers pg can't neither have a sword, while melee pg can carry up to 3 shields and still have a good weapon.

Remove construction sites from the game and set them as part of the maps. Replace them with carpenter's tools: pg with carpentier's tools will be able to use standard construction sites on the map to build siege weapons and tents.

And plz, try to rework catapults: i suggest you to give towers and walls some (a lot of) HP: when hp reach 0, walls will breach and towers will become not usable.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: joespose on May 16, 2011, 03:56:25 PM
Did initially say throwing, but changed when i noticed how ineffective armour has been lately. Fights happen all to quickly, im not just complaining about me dying to easily but also the enemy. its 1 - 2 hits most of the time
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Welcome_To_Hell on May 16, 2011, 04:25:06 PM
Buff the Flamberge!!!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Imloxion on May 16, 2011, 04:49:50 PM
The problems I encountered as a thrower:
Slot system is brutal,highier tier throwing weapons need 2 slots.
Ammo reduction.
Wpf requiment per power throw point which is about 14.2 destroys all hybrids that want to use high tier weapons.

Thats why i voted op throwing.
(Thx for the great-badass-fabulus-excellent-nice-godlike-present mod :mrgreen:)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Siboire on May 16, 2011, 04:56:24 PM
IMO shields need a little nerf. It's funny how a 30mm*30mm shield can automatically stop 99% of arrows.
On the other hand, buff steel shields to make them invulnerable to arrows.

I also think archers need some love: add big quivers with 30/40 arrows each (according to type). They will use only one slot, but they will will require a high weapon master skill value (5-6). Actually full archers pg can't neither have a sword, while melee pg can carry up to 3 shields and still have a good weapon.

Are you crazy? Nerf shield? Their "force field" got so nerfed that with my kyte shield (req of 3) I need to perfectly look straight at the archer and he can still hit my feet! If your an archer an cry to shielders, guess what, it's ur counter. If you can't shoot his feet, it's cuz he pumped a good amount of points into his shield skill, (or that you suck at archery?) accept that you can't defeat a shielder as an archer, again it's ur counter!.

Also, archers (I have an alt archer) are perfectly fine right now with the quiver sizes. Why do you think they have put the slot requirement? It's to be sure archers would not be able to shoot tons of arrows on top of having a melee weapon and a warbow/longbow. If you want more arrows, do not carry a melee weapon.  Also, if a melee guy tries to carry 3 shield, he will be slow as fuck! As soon as you have 2 shields, you get a huge penalty at ur athletics. So you can't compare guys with 3 shields with archers with 3 quivers... it's really not the same thing. Man I'm tired of ppl crying to nerf their counter class.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2011, 05:13:40 PM
Buff agility, the benefits that agility points give you arent as good as strength benefits. The amount of high str builds running around now is ridiculous, strength is the way to go, agi should be buffed or str should be nerfed to allow a greater variety of effective builds.

The balance between weapon classes is great nowadays, so I voted for keep everything as it is.

Lulz, and why are 15/24 polearm/2h spamming builds running rampant then ? *sees ninja clan sig* Ha ok nvm...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gravoth_iii on May 16, 2011, 06:56:33 PM
IMO spears need a buff, theres, well no reason at all to use them... atleast give them a buff so they pierce more than poleaxe >_>

2h seem fine right now, they do good fast swing damage in closequarters.

only thing that needs a nerf is poleaxes that swing waaay too fast!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Bulzur on May 16, 2011, 07:37:56 PM
Are you crazy? Nerf shield? Their "force field" got so nerfed that with my kyte shield (req of 3) I need to perfectly look straight at the archer and he can still hit my feet! If your an archer an cry to shielders, guess what, it's ur counter. If you can't shoot his feet, it's cuz he pumped a good amount of points into his shield skill, (or that you suck at archery?) accept that you can't defeat a shielder as an archer, again it's ur counter!.

Also, archers (I have an alt archer) are perfectly fine right now with the quiver sizes. Why do you think they have put the slot requirement? It's to be sure archers would not be able to shoot tons of arrows on top of having a melee weapon and a warbow/longbow. If you want more arrows, do not carry a melee weapon.  Also, if a melee guy tries to carry 3 shield, he will be slow as fuck! As soon as you have 2 shields, you get a huge penalty at ur athletics. So you can't compare guys with 3 shields with archers with 3 quivers... it's really not the same thing. Man I'm tired of ppl crying to nerf their counter class.

As an archer, i need to second this. It's already possible to hit a shielder from the right side, the back, the left side. Let them at least survive from the front (if they have big shield, else, shoot for the feet  :twisted: ).
I don't think shielders need a nerf. Maybe the pick needs one though. I picked a deadly steel pick once (thanks kinngrimm^^) and it's fantastic.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 16, 2011, 08:19:47 PM
Lulz, and why are 15/24 polearm/2h spamming builds running rampant then ? *sees ninja clan sig* Ha ok nvm...

 :lol:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ManOfWar on May 16, 2011, 08:28:07 PM
Are you crazy? Nerf shield? Their "force field" got so nerfed that with my kyte shield (req of 3) I need to perfectly look straight at the archer and he can still hit my feet! If your an archer an cry to shielders, guess what, it's ur counter. If you can't shoot his feet, it's cuz he pumped a good amount of points into his shield skill, (or that you suck at archery?) accept that you can't defeat a shielder as an archer, again it's ur counter!.

Also, archers (I have an alt archer) are perfectly fine right now with the quiver sizes. Why do you think they have put the slot requirement? It's to be sure archers would not be able to shoot tons of arrows on top of having a melee weapon and a warbow/longbow. If you want more arrows, do not carry a melee weapon.  Also, if a melee guy tries to carry 3 shield, he will be slow as fuck! As soon as you have 2 shields, you get a huge penalty at ur athletics. So you can't compare guys with 3 shields with archers with 3 quivers... it's really not the same thing. Man I'm tired of ppl crying to nerf their counter class.

Ya wtf, shields have already been nerfed!!!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Konrax on May 16, 2011, 08:49:22 PM
Are you crazy? Nerf shield? Their "force field" got so nerfed that with my kyte shield (req of 3) I need to perfectly look straight at the archer and he can still hit my feet! If your an archer an cry to shielders, guess what, it's ur counter. If you can't shoot his feet, it's cuz he pumped a good amount of points into his shield skill, (or that you suck at archery?) accept that you can't defeat a shielder as an archer, again it's ur counter!.

Also, archers (I have an alt archer) are perfectly fine right now with the quiver sizes. Why do you think they have put the slot requirement? It's to be sure archers would not be able to shoot tons of arrows on top of having a melee weapon and a warbow/longbow. If you want more arrows, do not carry a melee weapon.  Also, if a melee guy tries to carry 3 shield, he will be slow as fuck! As soon as you have 2 shields, you get a huge penalty at ur athletics. So you can't compare guys with 3 shields with archers with 3 quivers... it's really not the same thing. Man I'm tired of ppl crying to nerf their counter class.

+1
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Waylit on May 16, 2011, 10:14:12 PM

Remove construction sites from the game and set them as part of the maps. Replace them with carpenter's tools: pg with carpentier's tools will be able to use standard construction sites on the map to build siege weapons and tents.

Great idea.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: chief on May 16, 2011, 11:51:30 PM
To Corrado_Decimo, my replies are in bold. No need for anyone else to click the spoiler unles you want to see a flame war.




(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 17, 2011, 03:06:10 AM
To Corrado_Decimo, my replies are in bold. No need for anyone else to click the spoiler unles you want to see a flame war.




(click to show/hide)

just pretending to change a whole game only because you think it's faulty? then switch to another one. i'll like crpg even with the 2handed weapons getting nerfed patch by patch. (as it seems the only thing you care).
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Bruman on May 17, 2011, 08:45:05 AM
Love that like 80% of ppl are pretty much saying: "Boost my class, nerf the others"....

back to the topic: IMO throwing axe stack should be risen from 2->3, and that weird WPF need for PT should be taken off or lowered. Prolly would be enough of balancing.

Edit: 1 small thing for hairlooming... IMO hairlooming should be a bit easier at start for new players etc... For exsample:
1. hairloom at level 29
2. hairloom at level 30
3. and more at level 31...
The level 31 is too hard to get for many new players.... but when you get to know the game better its not a problem :)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: HarunYahya on May 17, 2011, 08:57:11 AM
Nerf armour , buff throwing accuracy .
That's my point.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Native_ATS on May 17, 2011, 09:31:35 AM
whats that buff exp?
i vote yes  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gorath on May 17, 2011, 10:13:46 AM
Just ignore Corrado dude.  He's an infantile raging 2h elitist with delusions of grandeur.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lisandro on May 17, 2011, 11:44:41 AM
I tried all the classes, and i almost sucks with everything, so buff me and nerf the others players
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 17, 2011, 01:20:27 PM
Just ignore Corrado dude.  He's an infantile raging 2h elitist with delusions of grandeur.

said the man (man?) willing to pay cold cash to have levels, stats and heirlooms.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Radament on May 17, 2011, 01:53:26 PM
Buff xp , cap to lvl 31 . The other things seems to be ok for me except for arrow picking up ( i feel a treasure hunter when i finish arrows) , crossbow needs power "something" , polearm stun maybe is a bit Op with some weapons (reduce stun time) , Bows needs to be pierce damage (just reduce the damage for better balance).

ah yes  , horse archery , reduce their 180 spin shot to a reasonable angle degree.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Chaos on May 17, 2011, 07:13:06 PM
As a crossbowman I chose nerf xbows.
I like the new sniper rifle feel of the arbalest so I still think xbows should be slower and maybe do more damage. And the regular xbow needs to be 2 slot, I want to see the xbow be more exclusive than classic sidearm for 2h characters.

And I didn't vote on it, but something must be done to revive polearm + shield, just not to the same effectiveness that it used to be.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: hidden on May 17, 2011, 07:43:53 PM
I hit buff bow (longbow)/ throwing

I don't think any of the stats on bows need altering really just the amount of arrows needs to be increased, 15 and 30 with no mele weapon is not good. You spend half of the match picking up arrows and its the reason I don't shoot at cav at medium range as I have too few arrows to waste them on hard shots.

Throwing is way over nerfed, and I had just started on a javalry build too :(

Not sure about other classes as I don't play them much, but I think a reduction in damage/speed for all weapons (where is nerf all ) would make the game more fun as longer battles/duels is more fun for me.



Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Frell on May 17, 2011, 10:27:50 PM
2H have always been unrealistically fast. Too easy to swing like crazy.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Christo on May 17, 2011, 10:37:52 PM
Not sure about other classes as I don't play them much, but I think a reduction in damage/speed for all weapons (where is nerf all ) would make the game more fun as longer battles/duels is more fun for me.

What he said.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ThePoopy on May 17, 2011, 11:43:46 PM
What she said.
+1
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: AlbaTiger on May 17, 2011, 11:51:04 PM
Throwing weapons need to be made viable.

There are other things I have opinions on in the poll but throwing is the only one I really really care about  justnow.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Ninja_Murphy on May 17, 2011, 11:51:48 PM
I know you say this is limited chadz but I cant help saying this.
It is not the classes that are wrong. it is the weapons. the 2h german and danish great sword are OP to the max, and why they have 15 difficulty but nodachi has 16 i dont understand.
I know i am a Ninja and i am likely to be biased but hear me out. You are slowly draining the fun out of this game for me, I know you have to make sure that people do not break rules and greif others, but theres a limit. you have restricted this great mod soo much. There is such a thing as doing too much. I do not mean stop bringing out new armour or idea's, but i mean perfect the things you have done so far, some things dont need more to be better. for example the lengths of weapons are a bit dodgy E.G alot of 1handed swords textures look short but they actualy are longer either that or the hit boxes are messed. also I do not like the item slots as it restricts the players ability to be unique. It is nearly as bad as having 6 or 9 classes to choose from and thats it.  This is not a greif poll it is how i feel, that this mod is going to the dogs. I hope you have took your time to read this and to do something about it.

Murphy
P.S BUFF THE KATANA =)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: hidden on May 18, 2011, 12:14:34 AM
oh yeah I forgot and fix the arrow pickup bug.

At least I am assuming its a bug, I really hope its a bug and not some awfully implemented feature.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Stormcrow on May 18, 2011, 05:15:25 AM
Longbow peirce is a bit much, now it makes other bows seem useless

Make arrows to be a .5 slot weapon. this would allow lower tier bow users to be able to use 2h weapon and polearms while high tier bow user could only use 1 slot weapons.

for example

Strongbow= 1 slot
arrows=  .5 slot
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slot
Total of 4 slots

Longbow = 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
arows= .5 slot
simple sword = 1 slot
Total of 4 slot

Longbow= 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slots
Total is 4.5 slot and therefore not possible
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Keshian on May 18, 2011, 06:31:07 AM
Longbow peirce is a bit much, now it makes other bows seem useless

Make arrows to be a .5 slot weapon. this would allow lower tier bow users to be able to use 2h weapon and polearms while high tier bow user could only use 1 slot weapons.

for example

Strongbow= 1 slot
arrows=  .5 slot
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slot
Total of 4 slots

Longbow = 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
arows= .5 slot
simple sword = 1 slot
Total of 4 slot

Longbow= 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slots
Total is 4.5 slot and therefore not possible

I approve this message.  +1
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Garem on May 18, 2011, 07:43:14 AM
I haven't seen many players with longbows outperform players with warbows. Longbows are also quite annoying to use, since they don't fire immediately on release and take foreeeeever to draw. The new bow choices give good options- extra arrows or melee with Strong, good damage with War, and ability to hurt tin cans with Longbow.

I think that lower tiered bows could use some love. Being a low level archer is godawful misery. Most importantly, the arrow pick up bugs are quite obnoxious with the disappearing quivers act.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: yiyayiyayo on May 18, 2011, 07:48:37 AM
As a crossbowman I chose nerf xbows.
I like the new sniper rifle feel of the arbalest so I still think xbows should be slower and maybe do more damage. And the regular xbow needs to be 2 slot, I want to see the xbow be more exclusive than classic sidearm for 2h characters.

+1
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Keshian on May 18, 2011, 05:07:24 PM
Longbow peirce is a bit much, now it makes other bows seem useless

Make arrows to be a .5 slot weapon. this would allow lower tier bow users to be able to use 2h weapon and polearms while high tier bow user could only use 1 slot weapons.

for example

Strongbow= 1 slot
arrows=  .5 slot
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slot
Total of 4 slots

Longbow = 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
arows= .5 slot
simple sword = 1 slot
Total of 4 slot

Longbow= 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slots
Total is 4.5 slot and therefore not possible

Actually kind of funny to see 50 length weapons take 0 slots but ammo takes up 1 slot.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: DrKronic on May 18, 2011, 06:26:50 PM
chief ur a noob and everything you posted was false, why don't you go ingame and actually play

polearms own now, u still haves the not unbalanced great loong axe killing everything, then the ridiculous thrust of the long spear should be toned down, I mean a guy can basically thrust into from 1 meter away its ridiculous a 2her IRL would have cut your spears shaft and yes you'd be dead upclose

as it stands polearms are way to go

Horse rear, its BS to say that 2h's are as good against horses as polearms are, we don't have horse rear(I.e. you know the horse stops when it gets hit)

all block crush 2h weapons were removed(oh yes the amazingly slow gimic great maul exists but seriously it sucks)

and YES the best shield bashing weapons are all in the top tier of Polearms



2h has had enough nerfs, leave it alone already my 17p on my masterwork katana(give me a break) can't even pierce mail at 9 powerstrike(wtf!)

and only a retard would say that weapons without bonus to shield over 40 damage can break shields(they can't, not in the time a good 1h will finish u because he gets omnidirectional block)

the only useful bonus to shields weapons 2h's have are in the mid tier, all unbalanced and slower than anything 1h uses(almost all "used" 1hers are in 99+ speed category, good luck killing someone with a 91-94 speed 2h axe of some kind(with unbalanced)

2h is the weakest way to go now, no shield vs ranged or omnidirectional block, many unbalanced weapons, shit thrusts on swords and even weakened cuts on so called "great" swords, no horse rear, bar mace got nerfed into oblivion

anyway thats the actual truth of the game, go play and get long speared
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Keshian on May 18, 2011, 06:30:18 PM

the only useful bonus to shields weapons 2h's have are in the mid tier, all unbalanced and slower than anything 1h uses(almost all "used" 1hers are in 99+ speed category, good luck killing someone with a 91-94 speed 2h axe of some kind(with unbalanced)


If you want try out the 1h axe that has a secondary mode of being used 2handed.  When used 2handed it is 96 speed, 35 cut, really like it and its great against shields.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: DrKronic on May 18, 2011, 06:33:30 PM
 oh yea plus as always u can use polearm or 1h wpf and use a shield without your swings being crippled like 2h(where we get barely any weapons to even wear a shield with, people just cloud what u can actually do in the game mechanics with their own BS

when u look at what each class can do polearms is on top

Polearms: best damage vs shields, shield usable weapons where u get to use polearm wpf, no unbalanced anti shield weapons, horse rear, long range higher damage cuts and thrust than 2h in top tier, best cavalry weapons

1h: easy block mode+blocking stops ranged, good cavalry weapons, extremely fast weapons whose hits tend to land on your face from the animation

2h: good low end weapons, dissapointing almost 3 time nerfed great swords(since .200), katana nerfed to not really having a pierce attack, no horse rear, no shield usable wpf, all bonus vs shields weapons are unbalanced(so you're fighting with slow blocks and feints vs 100 speed one handers yay,  flamberge?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 18, 2011, 07:19:07 PM
chief ur a noob and everything you posted was false, why don't you go ingame and actually play

polearms own now, u still haves the not unbalanced great loong axe killing everything, then the ridiculous thrust of the long spear should be toned down, I mean a guy can basically thrust into from 1 meter away its ridiculous a 2her IRL would have cut your spears shaft and yes you'd be dead upclose

as it stands polearms are way to go

Horse rear, its BS to say that 2h's are as good against horses as polearms are, we don't have horse rear(I.e. you know the horse stops when it gets hit)

all block crush 2h weapons were removed(oh yes the amazingly slow gimic great maul exists but seriously it sucks)

and YES the best shield bashing weapons are all in the top tier of Polearms



2h has had enough nerfs, leave it alone already my 17p on my masterwork katana(give me a break) can't even pierce mail at 9 powerstrike(wtf!)

and only a retard would say that weapons without bonus to shield over 40 damage can break shields(they can't, not in the time a good 1h will finish u because he gets omnidirectional block)

the only useful bonus to shields weapons 2h's have are in the mid tier, all unbalanced and slower than anything 1h uses(almost all "used" 1hers are in 99+ speed category, good luck killing someone with a 91-94 speed 2h axe of some kind(with unbalanced)

2h is the weakest way to go now, no shield vs ranged or omnidirectional block, many unbalanced weapons, shit thrusts on swords and even weakened cuts on so called "great" swords, no horse rear, bar mace got nerfed into oblivion
anyway thats the actual truth of the game, go play and get long speared

Ok I have highlighted a few points I would like to address (starting from the top going down)

1) you want the great long axe to be unbalanced why? it has 125 reach (1 more the the danish great) 46 cut (its an axe it was designed for cutting) 90 speed which to me seems fair, since it weight is 3.5 and you use two hands to hold it and not just holding it at the bottom, so to me great long axe is fine atm

2) A two handed weapon IRL would probably not chop a spear in half since the wood was very thick, you would need quite a bit of power to do that with a sword.

3) Yes for me some 2h's are just as good against cavalry as polearms I have seen people kill horse's with one stab with the german and danish great's and then seen people stab horse's with the pike and it not die so that seems fine to me even chance, yes polearms are longer two handed weapons we're not made for such long reach.

4) The reason most of the 2h crushthrough weapons were taken out was because there  were to many and they were just OP with their speed and damage personally I think it should just be hammers that crushthrough, it seems balanced low speed for high power.

5) Polearms are best against shields since their mostly axes which are built specifically to break shields so stop whining 2h have axes to.

6) Yes 2h did get quite a nerf but so did nearly every class, but they didn't get nerfed enough so the lol stab was taken out, to me that its quite fair to keep lol stab in exchanging it for a few cut or precise since it add allot of reach when its done (can easily out range my great long axe and when done by the right person sometimes my great long Bardiche!) yes the katana probably did get the heaviest nerf out of 2h weapons but pre-patch it was the ultimate spamming weapon that actually hurt not it still hurts and its still  f**king fast but just does less damage.

7) 2h are not the weakest class now they can still beat polearms and every other class don't blame the weapon blame the man/woman using it, if you don't know how to doge or use cover then quite simply don't go for archers let a shielder do it. But yes to many weapons in 2h are unbalanced that should be reworked.

8) You don't have crappy thrusts you have the LOL stab need I say more?

9) The barmace was just OP good speed damage and crushthrough was totally unfair for every one who didn't use it people just spammed over head with it so it just crushed through every thing so yes it deserved the nerf!

This is just my opinion on the matter nothing more, Yes allot of people would disagree but no one agrees with every thing in the world its how we make progress.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 18, 2011, 07:25:28 PM
oh yea plus as always u can use polearm or 1h wpf and use a shield without your swings being crippled like 2h(where we get barely any weapons to even wear a shield with, people just cloud what u can actually do in the game mechanics with their own BS

when u look at what each class can do polearms is on top

Polearms: best damage vs shields, shield usable weapons where u get to use polearm wpf, no unbalanced anti shield weapons, horse rear, long range higher damage cuts and thrust than 2h in top tier, best cavalry weapons

1h: easy block mode+blocking stops ranged, good cavalry weapons, extremely fast weapons whose hits tend to land on your face from the animation

2h: good low end weapons, dissapointing almost 3 time nerfed great swords(since .200), katana nerfed to not really having a pierce attack, no horse rear, no shield usable wpf, all bonus vs shields weapons are unbalanced(so you're fighting with slow blocks and feints vs 100 speed one handers yay,  flamberge?

totally agreed

Longbow peirce is a bit much, now it makes other bows seem useless

Make arrows to be a .5 slot weapon. this would allow lower tier bow users to be able to use 2h weapon and polearms while high tier bow user could only use 1 slot weapons.

for example

Strongbow= 1 slot
arrows=  .5 slot
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slot
Total of 4 slots

Longbow = 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
arows= .5 slot
simple sword = 1 slot
Total of 4 slot

Longbow= 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slots
Total is 4.5 slot and therefore not possible


totally agreed
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 18, 2011, 07:43:23 PM
Ok I have highlighted a few points I would like to address (starting from the top going down)

1) you want the great long axe to be unbalanced why? it has 125 reach (1 more the the danish great) 46 cut (its an axe it was designed for cutting) 90 speed which to me seems fair, since it weight is 3.5 and you use two hands to hold it and not just holding it at the bottom, so to me great long axe is fine atm

2) A two handed weapon IRL would probably not chop a spear in half since the wood was very thick, you would need quite a bit of power to do that with a sword.

3) Yes for me some 2h's are just as good against cavalry as polearms I have seen people kill horse's with one stab with the german and danish great's and then seen people stab horse's with the pike and it not die so that seems fine to me even chance, yes polearms are longer two handed weapons we're not made for such long reach.

4) The reason most of the 2h crushthrough weapons were taken out was because there  were to many and they were just OP with their speed and damage personally I think it should just be hammers that crushthrough, it seems balanced low speed for high power.

5) Polearms are best against shields since their mostly axes which are built specifically to break shields so stop whining 2h have axes to.

6) Yes 2h did get quite a nerf but so did nearly every class, but they didn't get nerfed enough so the lol stab was taken out, to me that its quite fair to keep lol stab in exchanging it for a few cut or precise since it add allot of reach when its done (can easily out range my great long axe and when done by the right person sometimes my great long Bardiche!) yes the katana probably did get the heaviest nerf out of 2h weapons but pre-patch it was the ultimate spamming weapon that actually hurt not it still hurts and its still  f**king fast but just does less damage.

7) 2h are not the weakest class now they can still beat polearms and every other class don't blame the weapon blame the man/woman using it, if you don't know how to doge or use cover then quite simply don't go for archers let a shielder do it. But yes to many weapons in 2h are unbalanced that should be reworked.

8) You don't have crappy thrusts you have the LOL stab need I say more?

9) The barmace was just OP good speed damage and crushthrough was totally unfair for every one who didn't use it people just spammed over head with it so it just crushed through every thing so yes it deserved the nerf!

This is just my opinion on the matter nothing more, Yes allot of people would disagree but no one agrees with every thing in the world its how we make progress.

1) because has free shieldbreaker advantage, lolstun advantage, weight advantage to stun lighter weapon blocks.

2) hell yeah we don't need that much of "realism".

3)you can only stab and kill unaware or noob horsemen. a horsemen chasing you will never fall in the jack-in-a-box trick. he simply slow down, keep you at range with his 170 or couch you.

4 and 5)as polearms are the best shieldbreakers and cav counters, 2h should be best duelers and blockcrushers. so stop whining about 2h crushthrough. yes 2h have shit axes as polearm have shit blockcrushers.

6)only weapon class still not overnerfed is polearms. stun is there, not unbalanced all directions piercer still there, best nominal damage of any weaponclass. (parsing slash attacks plus thrust attacks)

7)yes 2h are still the best dueler weapons. but they're getting nerfd patch by patch and less weapon choice to change playstyle make it boring in the long run. polearm agi spammers still stunlocks you to death while 2h stab will bounce for good especially against heavy armored infantry while bec de corbin steamroll em with 2 hits.

8) lolstab was modified.

9) i agree on the barmace spam. mighty barmace was really a iWin weapon. stock barmace tho required 9PS to start crushing thru decently. that was a heirloom modifier problem (adding damage AND weight). but tear rivers from the whiners just had the devs just removing the blockcrushing instead fixing and tuning it.

as you deny the obvious, talking about agree/disagree balance is meh...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 18, 2011, 08:01:07 PM
As I said its just my opinion about it no need to get on the defensive about it Im not saying it should be nerfed more.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 18, 2011, 08:12:24 PM
just wanted to say, even as a shielder, 2handers scare me more than polearm guys. 2h is the best 1v1 wep in the game. as for needing block crush... no. block crush is the stupidest shit in the game, we dont need any more crush through weapons. if you are complaining that pole stun is bad, then how can you possibly advocate weapons that ignore blocks completely?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: polkafranzi on May 18, 2011, 08:16:45 PM
just wanted to say, even as a shielder, 2handers scare me more than polearm guys. 2h is the best 1v1 wep in the game. as for needing block crush... no. block crush is the stupidest shit in the game, we dont need any more crush through weapons. if you are complaining that pole stun is bad, then how can you possibly advocate weapons that ignore blocks completely?

Prolly cos IRL a huge dude with a massive hammer would crush your skull thru your puny up block.  And we're all for realism ofc...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Blondin on May 18, 2011, 08:19:21 PM
Prolly cos IRL a huge dude with a massive hammer would crush your skull thru your puny up block.  And we're all for realism ofc...

no cause he would not block but deflect the hammer and put his sword in the huge dude neck in the same time, far more realistic....
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Brutal on May 18, 2011, 09:34:35 PM
half the price of cav and reduce their maneuverability or make couching blockable or last half as long or remove it or remove arabian motocross.
I'm getting tired of getting killed by a couching cav that i saw coming for ages but that i can't dodge (like i used to) even with 6 athletics.
 I don't mind getting backstabbed cuz most of the time it's my own fault but i hate being unable to counter an attack whatever i do .

Crushthrough was dealt with, something need to be done with couching.
I also hate being bumped and lanced, I m ok with bump slash because if you slash you've automatically a short reach so there is a counter.
But bump lance wtf !! how is that even possible ?  the only counter is to be  no more than 1 meter away from someone with a pike
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Death_Dealer on May 18, 2011, 10:23:09 PM
u can prevent bump lance by hittig the horse before bump same with the bump slash.

im after realism too and irl i dont think that i'd try to block an axe or hammer even with a shield, id rather dodging it but we have no ability to dodge the attacks with those poor footwork in game. so there shouldnt be crushthrough at all till we are able to dodge. thats my opinion
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Rhaelys on May 18, 2011, 10:44:31 PM
u can prevent bump lance by hittig the horse before bump same with the bump slash.

im after realism too and irl i dont think that i'd try to block an axe or hammer even with a shield, id rather dodging it but we have no ability to dodge the attacks with those poor footwork in game. so there shouldnt be crushthrough at all till we are able to dodge. thats my opinion

Trying to hit the horse to prevent a bump lance thrust will just lead you to you getting normally lanced dying.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Stormcrow on May 18, 2011, 10:52:24 PM
Longbow peirce is a bit much, now it makes other bows seem useless

Make arrows to be a .5 slot weapon. this would allow lower tier bow users to be able to use 2h weapon and polearms while high tier bow user could only use 1 slot weapons.

for example

Strongbow= 1 slot
arrows=  .5 slot
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slot
Total of 4 slots

Longbow = 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
arows= .5 slot
simple sword = 1 slot
Total of 4 slot

Longbow= 2 slots
arrows= .5 slot
longsword= 2 slots
Total is 4.5 slot and therefore not possible

Even if only low tier arrows such as arrows and barbed arrows took a half slot this would at least make them useful.
This would mean you could either chose arrows with higher damage or the ability to wield a higher slot weapon
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Dezilagel on May 19, 2011, 01:21:29 AM
Lets see here...

1. Remove HA

2. Reduce shield hp of higher-tier shields

3. Slower animation for 1h-shield overhead

4. Remove bumplance (bumpslash is ok imo)

5. Increase speed needed to bump

6. Smoothen out 2h stab animation (speed is fine atm, just looks weird...)

7. Reduce length of couch-lance (or make it so that you can't turn the lance? Would still serve purpose of defeating turtles)

8. Change the way pikes work, make them longer and "couchable" (stationary, would hit inf charging, but not slow-moving ones), and remove the thrust (offensive, speedy pikemen is just wtf imo)

9. Nerf crushthrough a little (dunno how :/)

10. Make some polearms unsheathable (poleaxes, glavie, glb...)

11. Remove jump-shooting (jumping should cancel the animation)

12. Take a look at hitboxes for curved weps

13. Fix the "forcefield buckler"

14: Reduce damage at maximum wep reach (esp important on poles/2 h, 1 h doesn't seem to be abusing this as much, or is that just me?)

15: Dmg nerf on x-bows

...and some other stuff :p

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: crojosip on May 19, 2011, 01:59:24 AM
Only complain I have.

Make horses turn a bit slower.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Siboire on May 19, 2011, 02:14:35 AM
As being cav myself, I say DO NOT remove Horse Archers. Its my main counter class and, even if i find them really annoying (its their job lol), i feel they should be completly part of the game. They sacrifice a lot in order to have decent horse archery accuracy and damage. A real HA does not have Wpf in melee weapons nor any atheltics points so once his horse is down, he's easy to kill. If u cry HA does not have a counter class, yup it does: infantry archers, other HA or even other cavs (working togeter or getting the guy by suprise) can kill an ennemy HA.
Title: Nerf three handed weapons
Post by: Elmiro on May 19, 2011, 03:25:13 AM
Nerf three handed weapons, I'm always killed by that ones, because the're too fast and long now :rolleyes:...please nerf them.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Wildling on May 19, 2011, 03:27:25 AM
Who the hell came up to remove Horse-Archers? Seriously.


Facepalm.jpg
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 19, 2011, 04:11:44 AM
just wanted to say, even as a shielder, 2handers scare me more than polearm guys. 2h is the best 1v1 wep in the game. as for needing block crush... no. block crush is the stupidest shit in the game, we dont need any more crush through weapons. if you are complaining that pole stun is bad, then how can you possibly advocate weapons that ignore blocks completely?

because polearm agi stackers stunlock you to death with insane speed and reach? while to blockcrush you need a 70 length 8+ weight slow as hell hammer.
that's a greatmaul address. mallet is fine. don't blockcrush too much and need 7+ ps.

and by the way... 2h hammers are the natural shielder's counter. and a good shielder will evade your first blow then feint spam you to death.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tzar on May 19, 2011, 04:38:00 AM
Only noobs complain about crush  :? dont try to explain to them all they have to do is backpedal and spam to counter a slow ass 68 reach hammer they are the slowest weapons ingame for a reason for crying outloud..... they must have all rdy have given up learning at this stage if they are typing here and except the entire mod to be made after their lasy ass style of gameplay.

Btw matey is and agi stacker with 8 ATH how on earth he has a problem with giant slow ass no reach hammers beats me...  even with your 1h weapon i have no clue how your unable to dogde it.. a friendly advice matey try attacking the guy with the hammer instead of goin towards him with your shield raised attack instead of trying to block it.. its acutally the only weapon ingame where u cant be lasy with your turtle build. In Other words dont wait for the enemy to attack like u would do with every other weapon ingame attack is your best option here.

You must either be lasy or just clueless if u cant counter a hammer user with my 1h alt i laugh at warbeast when he charge at me because i know how to counter it and its really simple just do what i said and you will be fine. Backpedal and swing rinse and repeat =?? = profit!!


On the topic i dont really think u can nerf weapons more than u all ready done chadz..


By saying that if u continue to nerf weapons some weapons will end up being useless i kinda like it the way it is now every weapon is unique and each have their own use on the battlefield not like before where evry1 and their mothers used german greatswords or LHB.

My only complaint is the xbow when heirloomed its too powerfull... make sense since its the only set of heirloomed items u havent nerfed yet.

Anyways keep up the good work i trust you dont take too much of the whine here on the forums too slry because then we will end up haveing to fight eachtother with rocks and wooden sticks.. :lol:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: v/onMega on May 19, 2011, 11:02:03 AM
Is it possible to undo the allrdy clicked options? XD

2hers are fine, more difficult but fine.
Lolstab does work, everything else is a myth.

Polearms are ok imo. Except for pike (specially 2 or more pikeman) there is nothing that couldnt be dealed with.

1h. Well, thank god there isnt that many good 1h players...scimitar speed is ridicolius.

Ranged is okay too.

Cav is ok too, just tweak everybodies awareness xD

All in all this mod is freaking balanced atm :-) 2h are still awesome, there is just more challanges :-)
We need strategus for a final decision!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Malaclypse on May 19, 2011, 11:48:05 AM
So the Archer animation in cRPG is from the Combat Animation Enhancement mod, which is also where the short-lived new polearm thrust came from. I'm curious, have the rest of these animations ever been considered? The polearm thrust looked wonky mixed in with Native animations, but worked well with the other re-tooled animations. New 1hand/shield animations are outstanding, especially.

For my part, I said buff throwing, that's it, everything else seems fairly balanced to me.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Frell on May 19, 2011, 02:29:59 PM
two handers should be slowed down a good bit. Theres no way you can swing a 40 pound axe/sword repeatedly where in real life its even hard to keep the momentum of repeatedly swinging a baseball bat down.

Or add stamina for 2hand users. First hit is the strongest and from there speed and damage are reduced.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corwin on May 19, 2011, 02:33:37 PM
Swords are supposed to be fast. In real life, there aren't any 40 pound heavy swords. It's a myth. Take look at this: http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

I don't know about the weight and speed of two handed axes, though.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Frell on May 19, 2011, 02:53:42 PM
the longer the 2h sword is, the harder it is to stop the swing, though.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 19, 2011, 04:44:34 PM
two handers should be slowed down a good bit. Theres no way you can swing a 40 pound axe/sword repeatedly where in real life its even hard to keep the momentum of repeatedly swinging a baseball bat down.

Or add stamina for 2hand users. First hit is the strongest and from there speed and damage are reduced.

 Nerf 2h swords even more ? wtf dude ? They alrdy suck.
And you could swing sword fast irl. And this is also a game, and it needs to be balanced, and atm polearms has better reach, dmg, stab and they have a stun. So the 2h´s need to be buffed, not nerfed.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Frell on May 19, 2011, 05:03:00 PM
I mean more so, the long the reach the slower the swing.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Wildling on May 19, 2011, 06:27:44 PM
Nerf 2h swords even more ? wtf dude ? They alrdy suck.
And you could swing sword fast irl. And this is also a game, and it needs to be balanced, and atm polearms has better reach, dmg, stab and they have a stun. So the 2h´s need to be buffed, not nerfed.

They already suck? LOL

When most people run around with 2hander swinging them like no-other, you can't even counter attack with an 1hander before you get lolstabbed again.

Also the 180 stab is back.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lech on May 19, 2011, 08:00:28 PM
They already suck? LOL

When most people run around with 2hander swinging them like no-other, you can't even counter attack with an 1hander before you get lolstabbed again.

Also the 180 stab is back.

You can counter them, 1h do just fine when using 1337 spamitar and some broken shield. 2h have advantage on high skill level play, but at low .. not much.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Baggy on May 19, 2011, 08:23:20 PM
They already suck? LOL

When most people run around with 2hander swinging them like no-other, you can't even counter attack with an 1hander before you get lolstabbed again.

Also the 180 stab is back.
QQ, there is no wat to spam a shielder in a balanced build or even an agi one, unless you go full agi ofc.You being spammed just means you have shit footwork and/or skill.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 19, 2011, 09:05:11 PM

Btw matey is and agi stacker with 8 ATH how on earth he has a problem with giant slow ass no reach hammers beats me...  even with your 1h weapon i have no clue how your unable to dogde it.. a friendly advice matey try attacking the guy with the hammer instead of goin towards him with your shield raised attack instead of trying to block it.. its acutally the only weapon ingame where u cant be lasy with your turtle build. In Other words dont wait for the enemy to attack like u would do with every other weapon ingame attack is your best option here.

You must either be lasy or just clueless if u cant counter a hammer user with my 1h alt i laugh at warbeast when he charge at me because i know how to counter it and its really simple just do what i said and you will be fine. Backpedal and swing rinse and repeat =?? = profit!!



ah you are a bright fellow aren't you? it's a shame you dont play on NA servers so i wont get the chance to rip you to pieces.
As I said in my thread about athletics, Athletics is not doing enough right now. what that means is that Mr Great maul with 3 athletics, is fast enough to remain in striking distance DESPITE me backpedaling. P.s. most great maul players are horrible and i just get them to waste their first swing at the air then spam them to death... the problem is when GOOD players take great mauls and stack as much agi as they can. Palatro is always my favourite example of this, he used to rock 7 or 8 athletics with a great maul (that was before they increased STR requirment on it) so you would backpedal from him, and he would run forward into your range, you would swing at him with your superior reach, he would block then line up an overhead, you try to get out of reach, you cant, you die.
anyways, crushthrough hasnt been much of an issue with me since this latest patch, the best news is that very few good players use great mauls these days. I wouldn't mind seeing it removed completely, but I also don't really mind it too much where it is, I generally just stay the hell away from great mauls if i know there is a good player wielding it, I can't backpedal out of their reach, but i can avoid going anywhere near them to begin with.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Fartface on May 19, 2011, 09:51:49 PM
to be honest im a 2h-xbow, that means that my enemys are archers.
but i think that the horses need a little buff :D
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 19, 2011, 09:52:34 PM
ah you are a bright fellow aren't you? it's a shame you dont play on NA servers so i wont get the chance to rip you to pieces.
As I said in my thread about athletics, Athletics is not doing enough right now. what that means is that Mr Great maul with 3 athletics, is fast enough to remain in striking distance DESPITE me backpedaling. P.s. most great maul players are horrible and i just get them to waste their first swing at the air then spam them to death... the problem is when GOOD players take great mauls and stack as much agi as they can. Palatro is always my favourite example of this, he used to rock 7 or 8 athletics with a great maul (that was before they increased STR requirment on it) so you would backpedal from him, and he would run forward into your range, you would swing at him with your superior reach, he would block then line up an overhead, you try to get out of reach, you cant, you die.
anyways, crushthrough hasnt been much of an issue with me since this latest patch, the best news is that very few good players use great mauls these days. I wouldn't mind seeing it removed completely, but I also don't really mind it too much where it is, I generally just stay the hell away from great mauls if i know there is a good player wielding it, I can't backpedal out of their reach, but i can avoid going anywhere near them to begin with.

backpedaling isn't the way to get out of reach. turn back 180°, get some distance and engage again. oh wait... is simplier to press the community and nerf the two handers...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Mala on May 19, 2011, 10:16:57 PM
Yeah great idea. Show them your unprotected back while you are still in striking range.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Malaclypse on May 19, 2011, 11:01:13 PM
two handers should be slowed down a good bit. Theres no way you can swing a 40 pound axe/sword repeatedly where in real life its even hard to keep the momentum of repeatedly swinging a baseball bat down.

Or add stamina for 2hand users. First hit is the strongest and from there speed and damage are reduced.

Where are you getting this figure, 40 pounds? Great Maul, the heaviest 2hander I believe, is only 8 pounds, most swords are below 6 pounds. Your average 1hander + shield combo is about 6+ pounds.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 20, 2011, 12:09:30 AM
backpedaling isn't the way to get out of reach. turn back 180°, get some distance and engage again. oh wait... is simplier to press the community and nerf the two handers...

first off, i wasnt complaining about 2hers, i was talking specifically about crush through weapons, not all 2hers. secondly, what the other guy said... getting hit in the back sucks.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 20, 2011, 02:43:06 AM
Yeah great idea. Show them your unprotected back while you are still in striking range.

first off, i wasnt complaining about 2hers, i was talking specifically about crush through weapons, not all 2hers. secondly, what the other guy said... getting hit in the back sucks.

i do that a lot of times. ofc after parrying a swing. in the maul case, stay out of reach. period. is not written anywhere that you should go face a mauler. is the same thing as running with a twohander/polearm to an archer head on.

well you can try to learn WHEN fast turning 180 degrees, running and doing a surprise thrust/overhead... is the only way to dispatch a small group of enemies without being ganked. footwork and athletics are your friends. use it.

and if you can't, just don't do sarcasm with "great idea" or "fuc*in genius!".



as a twohander am i supposed to cry rivers about throwers/xboiw/archers? is not a must...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 20, 2011, 03:08:10 AM
my build is based on being able to fight 5 guys at a time :P thats why it bugs me that athletics doesnt do more, it sucks when the tin can tanks can keep up despite having way more armour and way less agi/ath
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Mala on May 20, 2011, 11:09:52 AM
i do that a lot of times. ofc after parrying a swing. in the maul case, stay out of reach. period. is not written anywhere that you should go face a mauler. is the same thing as running with a twohander/polearm to an archer head on.

well you can try to learn WHEN fast turning 180 degrees, running and doing a surprise thrust/overhead... is the only way to dispatch a small group of enemies without being ganked. footwork and athletics are your friends. use it.

and if you can't, just don't do sarcasm with "great idea" or "fuc*in genius!".
...

Weeell, onehand weapons are quite short. I am still in their range after a parry.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Khurt on May 20, 2011, 12:03:10 PM
Are you crazy? Nerf shield? Their "force field" got so nerfed that with my kyte shield (req of 3) I need to perfectly look straight at the archer and he can still hit my feet! If your an archer an cry to shielders, guess what, it's ur counter. If you can't shoot his feet, it's cuz he pumped a good amount of points into his shield skill, (or that you suck at archery?) accept that you can't defeat a shielder as an archer, again it's ur counter!.

Also, archers (I have an alt archer) are perfectly fine right now with the quiver sizes. Why do you think they have put the slot requirement? It's to be sure archers would not be able to shoot tons of arrows on top of having a melee weapon and a warbow/longbow. If you want more arrows, do not carry a melee weapon.  Also, if a melee guy tries to carry 3 shield, he will be slow as fuck! As soon as you have 2 shields, you get a huge penalty at ur athletics. So you can't compare guys with 3 shields with archers with 3 quivers... it's really not the same thing. Man I'm tired of ppl crying to nerf their counter class.

cavalry is supposed to counter archers, not foot infantry :/
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 20, 2011, 12:24:06 PM
Weeell, onehand weapons are quite short. I am still in their range after a parry.

you should try the lolite spamitar then... nobody force you to use a steel pick, warhammer or similar...

and btw, you don't need to be in your strike zone to block. you just need to be in your enemy strike zone.

and again, maul is way shorter than 1h weapons.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Templar_Ratigan on May 20, 2011, 01:53:34 PM
Swords are supposed to be fast. In real life, there aren't any 40 pound heavy swords. It's a myth. Take look at this: http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

I don't know about the weight and speed of two handed axes, though.

Even though I agree somewhat with your point, if you actually read that article they point out that true two handed swords were more of a renaissance thing rather than a medieval thing.

Logically they shouldnt even be in the game, not forgetting that the swords they are testing are ones used during the 15-16th century not medieval and so not relevant to this discussion  :mrgreen:.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Vicious666 on May 20, 2011, 03:15:35 PM


kill lolhammer with 1h is very easy first of all except steel pick pretty much all other 1h outrange a lolhammer. 2nd  if he fail first swing, you can hit twice first than he attack back, (and with steel pick means he is dead) and if you stay near him and he is stupid enought to try an overhead  again  you just need to circle him use left swing and hit on head.


with a sword 90-100+ range you can pretty much outrange him  with right attack and pierce attack all time. never entering  the "risk zone"

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corwin on May 20, 2011, 04:03:07 PM
Even though I agree somewhat with your point, if you actually read that article they point out that true two handed swords were more of a renaissance thing rather than a medieval thing.
Two handed GREAT swords. Text is about them, while it is logical that all of the smaller swords were lighter (such as William Wallace claymore, for example). Two handed swords were used throughout middle ages, and especially in the last century and a half of middle ages (middle ages 476 AD - 1492 AD or 476AD - 1453 AD depending on the periodization also include part of the period of renaissance), while their length peaked in 16th and 17th century. I agree that they weren't predominant weapon of medieval times, but they definitely should be in the game.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Siboire on May 20, 2011, 10:37:26 PM
cavalry is supposed to counter archers, not foot infantry :/

lol alert archers will eat cav ponies for breakfast
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Astinus on May 21, 2011, 08:03:54 AM
I think archery needs a little nerf strategus aimed: the reduced armors value means they can still be the rulers of the battlefield so for the sake of a less fps oriented crpg you should find something to limit that.
But I also think you are already aware of this problem
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 21, 2011, 09:07:50 AM

kill lolhammer with 1h is very easy first of all except steel pick pretty much all other 1h outrange a lolhammer. 2nd  if he fail first swing, you can hit twice first than he attack back, (and with steel pick means he is dead) and if you stay near him and he is stupid enought to try an overhead  again  you just need to circle him use left swing and hit on head.


with a sword 90-100+ range you can pretty much outrange him  with right attack and pierce attack all time. never entering  the "risk zone"

that works great on most of the inexperienced players who pick up a great maul. try it on the good players though and youll be paste most of the time.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Mustikki on May 21, 2011, 12:14:31 PM
I think the horse archers would need a small slot based nerf.  Strongbow and Khergitbow currently uses only 1 slot, which doesn't really change anything from ha equipment.

Another nerf should go for the lancing from mounted. Currently i can 1 hit (just a normal thrust attack) almoust anything from horseback with my lancer.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lech on May 21, 2011, 12:36:22 PM
Yeah, lances deal way too much damage, like they always did. If i hit hit horse with my spear, i barely do any damage, but lancer can just one hit me :/
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ThePoopy on May 21, 2011, 12:44:08 PM
its speed bonus that need nerf
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Dezilagel on May 21, 2011, 08:41:35 PM
its speed bonus that need nerf

I disagree, it's a vital part of M&B gameplay.

What lances need is a slight range nerf, to allow warspear and similar to outrange them IF they aim for the horse. (And cav ofc need maneuver fixed asap!)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Bulzur on May 21, 2011, 09:26:49 PM
its speed bonus that need nerf

Actually, this could turn out to be agreat idea.
This way, the real damage output will come from PD and wpf rather than lolturn and such.
You don't have to remove it completely (of course not), but lowering it a bit wouldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Dezilagel on May 21, 2011, 09:50:13 PM
Actually, this could turn out to be agreat idea.
This way, the real damage output will come from PD and wpf rather than lolturn and such.
You don't have to remove it completely (of course not), but lowering it a bit wouldn't hurt.

Why would you remove human impact from the game? O.o

I want a game that I play, not a game that plays itself.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Mala on May 21, 2011, 09:53:43 PM
But dont forget that footsolders have a speedbonus around 30% as well.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Renay on May 21, 2011, 10:10:36 PM
Buff 2h and nerf everything else  :twisted:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gurnisson on May 22, 2011, 06:24:45 AM
cavalry is supposed to counter archers, not foot infantry :/

No. Shielders are archer's counter, not cav.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: robtherad on May 22, 2011, 08:03:25 AM
The secret about light cav is that given ANY distance between them and an aware opponent, they are going to lose by either dying, or being unable to kill their opponent. It's not hard to win against light cav, you just need to not shuffle around like a caveman.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ToxicKilla on May 22, 2011, 12:47:32 PM
No. Shielders are archer's counter, not cav.
Cavalry are supposed to counter the archers by flanking, but shielders can counter by going head-on. It's simple medieval tactics. :wink:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 22, 2011, 04:04:43 PM
Why would you remove human impact from the game? O.o

I want a game that I play, not a game that plays itself.

agreed
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 22, 2011, 10:53:46 PM
I'm pleased with these results :

Buff throwing :
-ok, it's dead as it is now anyway.
Nerf polearms :
-yes, too fast, too much range, too much damage, something needs to be done for the GLA, LHB, poleaxes and other 4 attacks polearms. Pike-like weapons are fine imo. Maybe they need a little damage buff.
Buff 1h :
-why not, depends on what 1h are buffed.
Buff horses :
- yes if the buff is in armor, charge and/or HP. And maybe a size increase for some horses that have weird bump hitboxes.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Blondin on May 22, 2011, 10:56:47 PM
I'm pleased with these results :

Buff throwing :
-ok, it's dead as it is now anyway.
Nerf polearms :
-yes, too fast, too much range, too much damage, something needs to be done for the GLA, LHB, poleaxes and other 4 attacks polearms. Pike-like weapons are fine imo. Maybe they need a little damage buff.
Buff 1h :
-why not, depends on what 1h are buffed.
Buff horses :
- yes if the buff is in armor, charge and/or HP. And maybe a size increase for some horses that have weird bump hitboxes.

+1 agreed, with all of this (i voted only nerf polearm, but the rest is true).
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: okiN on May 22, 2011, 10:58:33 PM
If you feel you've missed something, you can always revote.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tor! on May 22, 2011, 11:31:20 PM
-yes, too fast, too much range, too much damage, something needs to be done for the GLA,

The GLA has already been nerfed (twice!) in a row, other poles are superior to it now (including the cheaper version, Long War Axe).
Should remove polestun and it would all be ok, to bad its hardcoded.

And make armor actually worth it.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ThePoopy on May 22, 2011, 11:54:17 PM
ye, dont make polearms even slower, it wont effect the stunning
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Bulzur on May 23, 2011, 12:09:35 AM
I'm pleased with these results :

Buff throwing :
-ok, it's dead as it is now anyway.
Nerf polearms :
-yes, too fast, too much range, too much damage, something needs to be done for the GLA, LHB, poleaxes and other 4 attacks polearms. Pike-like weapons are fine imo. Maybe they need a little damage buff.
Buff 1h :
-why not, depends on what 1h are buffed.
Buff horses :
- yes if the buff is in armor, charge and/or HP. And maybe a size increase for some horses that have weird bump hitboxes.

Agree with everything except the buff horses. I wouldn't mind a fix for them, extra armor charge and/or hp, AND some maneuver and speed reduction.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Sir_Mateusz on May 23, 2011, 03:14:44 AM
-Buff Horses - Horse head shot is not neceseary i think. Also cheap horses like Rouncey or Courser can be easily killed with one shot (not headshot) from a crossbow - its not fair. I think also that heavily armored horses are a little too slow. It's like riding a tortoise.

-Buff armor - Heavy armor is usseles. It gives too little protection. I can get killed wearing millanese plate with one fucking thrust from 2h (when i am mounted). Its not fair because sometimes i need to hit people more than once with MW heavy lance riding at full speed. Heavy cavalry in most cases is usseles too, because heavy armor does not give any advantage.
I like its expensive but not worth the effort to use it.

-Nerf Twohanders - I can be killed with one thrust, as i said above, and sometimes (maybe it is illusion caused by ping, I dont know) outranged by 2h thrust if i have Heavy Lance.

And one more. Why my horse stops being hit from the side?! I understood in the chest but not in the stomach or ass...

Sry for my english i hope that you will understand what i wrote :D
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gurnisson on May 23, 2011, 03:35:42 AM
-Buff Horses - Horse head shot is not neceseary i think. Also cheap horses like Rouncey or Courser can be easily killed with one shot (not headshot) from a crossbow - its not fair. I think also that heavily armored horses are a little too slow. It's like riding a tortoise.

Like Bulzur said. More health/armor only if the speed/maneuver gets nerfed.

-Buff armor - Heavy armor is usseles. It gives too little protection. I can get killed wearing millanese plate with one fucking thrust from 2h (when i am mounted). Its not fair because sometimes i need to hit people more than once with MW heavy lance riding at full speed. Heavy cavalry in most cases is usseles too, because heavy armor does not give any advantage.
I like its expensive but not worth the effort to use it.

Heavy whorses is decent when used right. Especially good for 1H cav imo. Also, saying heavy armor is useless shows a clear lack of knowledge. Go off your horse, stand still and get a 2H stab into you. No chance of killing you in one-hit with that armor. It's because of the speed bonus from whorses. You've probably been riding towards him, while he's been moving towards you as well. MASSIVE speed bonus. Speed bonus will help you, but also cripple you sometimes, I.E. fair. Don't buff armor.

-Nerf Twohanders - I can be killed with one thrust, as i said above, and sometimes (maybe it is illusion caused by ping, I dont know) outranged by 2h thrust if i have Heavy Lance.

They don't outrange lances, and they've already been nerfed enough damage-wise. Don't mix cav speed bonus with 2H damage.

And one more. Why my horse stops being hit from the side?! I understood in the chest but not in the stomach or ass...

They don't. Only hits in a certain radius around the horse's face will make it rear, and the hit must come somewhat from the front of the horse's direction. Also, only polearm hits makes the horse rear.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Sir_Mateusz on May 23, 2011, 04:04:55 AM
Heavy whorses is decent when used right. Especially good for 1H cav imo. Also, saying heavy armor is useless shows a clear lack of knowledge. Go off your horse, stand still and get a 2H stab into you. No chance of killing you in one-hit with that armor. It's because of the speed bonus from whorses. You've probably been riding towards him, while he's been moving towards you as well. MASSIVE speed bonus. Speed bonus will help you, but also cripple you sometimes, I.E. fair. Don't buff armor.
Yes i was riding almost towards him, but still one strike... its too easy i think. Belive me sometimes i need more than one good HLance thrust to kill some guys (7ps).

But still i think heavy armor is not worth its price.
1h cav uses HArmor because think they are closer to enemies but they dont need this armor same as lancers. Oh and when i said about heavy cavalry i ment lancers too.
Only diference as I notice is bow makes less dmg vs HArmor - its good, but still 2 xbow shots (1 headshot) and you are dead knight with shiny armor worth a lot of gold, its same as pesant or light armored guy with gear worth ~300g. (worth i mean upkeep cost)

This is only my opinion and I know as cavalryman i am not objective :)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Dezilagel on May 23, 2011, 04:09:27 AM
Yes i was riding almost towards him, but still one strike... its too easy i think. Belive me sometimes i need more than one good HLance thrust to kill some guys (7ps)

Dude... Get off your ez mode horse and play some 2h and you'll see how "easy" it is.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gurnisson on May 23, 2011, 04:11:13 AM
Yes i was riding almost towards him, but still one strike... its too easy i think. Belive me sometimes i need more than one good HLance thrust to kill some guys (7ps).

But still i think heavy armor is not worth its price.
1h cav uses HArmor because think they are closer to enemies but they dont need this armor same as lancers. Oh and when i said about heavy cavalry i ment lancers too.
Only diference as I notice is bow makes less dmg vs HArmor - its good, but still 2 xbow shots (1 headshot) and you are dead knight with shiny armor worth a lot of gold, its same as pesant or light armored guy with gear worth ~300g. (worth i mean upkeep cost)

This is only my opinion and I know as cavalryman i am not objective :)

I have a lancer too. I'm more of a coucher than a stabber, but the stabs deal massive damage. You're right on one point though, stabs doesn't one-hit kill all the time, which is good a good thing. They should be able to do it from time to time, but shouldn't do it each time. What xbow are you talking of btw? Arbalest should be able to two-shoot people in high-tier armor, because of their reloading time.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Sir_Mateusz on May 23, 2011, 04:46:12 AM
What xbow are you talking of btw? Arbalest should be able to two-shoot people in high-tier armor, because of their reloading time.
I dont know what xbow hits me i dont have much time to ask this bloody bastards ;)
If it was Sniper Xbow its ok, you are right this reaload time... but its ok ONLY for this one xbow :)

Dude... Get off your ez mode horse and play some 2h and you'll see how "easy" it is.
I didnt said its easy, i said its too easy.
I dont like to play with op weapon, this is why i dont play as 2h-sword knight.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 23, 2011, 06:14:27 AM
I dont know what xbow hits me i dont have much time to ask this bloody bastards ;)
If it was Sniper Xbow its ok, you are right this reaload time... but its ok ONLY for this one xbow :)
I didnt said its easy, i said its too easy.
I dont like to play with op weapon, this is why i dont play as 2h-sword knight.

2h are in no way OP anymore due to the massive nerf they got I was mainly Polearms and thought 2h needed the nerf now I actually made a 2h class its nowhere near OP as it was now its week if anything.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 23, 2011, 07:03:37 AM
For those that aren't aware, you can hit "REMOVE VOTE" and change what you voted for if you are thinking to yourself that you voted incorrectly.

I voted to buff throwing and nerf pole, but I removed the nerf pole because I decided I wasn't informed enough, and was probably just knee jerk reacting to seeing players using bec's having 20+ kills on the board. I leave it to others who know more to decide if they're too fast or if they're just being used with skill. Im only voting to buff throwing because I know enough to say for certain that it needs it.

Edit: And I refuse to do what is probably the standard "buff what I use, nerf what kills me" vote.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Furax on May 23, 2011, 07:06:56 AM
To anyone whining about cav beeing OP, why arent you yourself playing it? Why arent you on the field lancing everyones arses?

Because you suck and the first person you encounter on the battlefield is generally your last. If you cant downblock, and instead try to jump and slash/stab the riders head off with your puny 90-130 reach weapon versus the 190 reach one. You should die giggling over your own foolish greed.  When you encounter a pikeman? Do you also try to outrange him and QQ when he stabs you?

I retired from the mounted class for the time beeing, but me myself who have had alot of experience as a lancer cav knows that all I have to do as infantry is stand on a slightly elevated area or near a wall and your as good as 100% untouchable from cav.

People shouldent be allowed to complain about classes they havent tried for atleast a generation.(New generation)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gorath on May 23, 2011, 07:51:22 AM
To anyone whining about cav beeing OP, why arent you yourself playing it? Why arent you on the field lancing everyones arses?

I am, on Vyrus.  It's far too easy.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ToxicKilla on May 23, 2011, 08:45:28 AM
Cavalry isn't easy, neither is it hard (one handed cavalry is hard). If I ride toward a group of people with my couch down, more often than not I'll get an arrow in my face which ruins the couch, then some dude will jump up and slash mine and my horses head off. But when people are spread out, that is when cav do best. Like they should. But when 2 handers try to outreach a great lance, it's kinda stupid. A quick side step can usually get you out of the way. Unless you have 0 athletics and tin can armour.
Besides, cavalry are supposed to be feared on the medieval battlefield.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: BaldRider on May 23, 2011, 09:07:26 AM
If I run alone against a group of people as a 2-hander, I tend to get shot too. Saying that cavalry isn't easy just because you can't ride straight towards enemies and kill them is just silly.
Fact is, grabbing a courser and a couchable lance will score you insane amounts of kills aslong as you manage to keep cool and not rush in alone against the enemy team during the first two minutes of the round.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Bulzur on May 23, 2011, 10:48:13 AM
If I run alone against a group of people as a 2-hander, I tend to get shot too. Saying that cavalry isn't easy just because you can't ride straight towards enemies and kill them is just silly.
Fact is, grabbing a courser and a couchable lance will score you insane amounts of kills aslong as you manage to keep cool and not rush in alone against the enemy team during the first two minutes of the round.

This.
And someone (a pro buff cav) said somewhere that courser only needed two hits from a bow to die. I admired the irony of his sentence, since with a mw strongbow it takes me 5 shots in the body to take that horse down. And when you know it's insane speed, it's pretty hard to shoot it down. Only the arabian one need 3 arrows.
The fact is, i'm starting playing on server with less than 60 people, and later, and i see way less cav. Maybe two per team. And it's definitely better than a 60 player team with 8 cav.
Lastly, to all thoses who say horses die easily to range, then you're definitely doing something wrong. Like riding in a straight line, riding toward an archer who saw you from far away, riding/climbing a hill/mountain, riding/swimming in a river for more than 4sec.
I'm a decent archer, and yet Toffi managed to dodge 15 arrows mid distance. Not too close to make it easy for me to shoot, but not too far so that i decide to change target.

PS: To all complaining their horses die in 2 shots from an arbalest : I die from 1 shot of this mw version, in close/mid distance, and certainly can't dodge it at a footman speed. -_-
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Khurt on May 23, 2011, 10:57:39 AM
No. Shielders are archer's counter, not cav.

sorry, but no...
heavy plates and shields should slow down men and light archers should be able to easily flee away.

cav>archers>footmen>spears>cav

that's should be the circle. Ofc, the heavier are the plates, the less should be the effectiveness of archers (actually this is), but shields should not create a forcefield to stop any kind of arrows like a wall: crossbows should be able to pass trough shields (ofc arbalet should be able to pass trough heavier shields than hunting crossbow) and arrows should be able to hit head/leg.

on the other hand, i think shields on shoulder should work as a shield and not as armor.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lech on May 23, 2011, 11:20:26 AM
To anyone whining about cav beeing OP, why arent you yourself playing it? Why arent you on the field lancing everyones arses?

Because you suck and the first person you encounter on the battlefield is generally your last. If you cant downblock, and instead try to jump and slash/stab the riders head off with your puny 90-130 reach weapon versus the 190 reach one. You should die giggling over your own foolish greed.  When you encounter a pikeman? Do you also try to outrange him and QQ when he stabs you?

I retired from the mounted class for the time beeing, but me myself who have had alot of experience as a lancer cav knows that all I have to do as infantry is stand on a slightly elevated area or near a wall and your as good as 100% untouchable from cav.

People shouldent be allowed to complain about classes they havent tried for atleast a generation.(New generation)

I played generation on Cybele, it's op.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Raki on May 23, 2011, 12:29:18 PM
Having played most classes (have yet to try a dedicated xbower, thrower and horse archer), the only thing that needs a change is the 2h stab, it's plain terrible atm. (I'm using a Balanced Danish Greatsword)
Pretty much every stab I try ends up in one of the following:
- Even with superior range, my opponent comes in closer while I'm executing my stab, slashing me before my stab gets a chance to hit.
- My stab just bounces off medium-heavy armor, leaving me exposed to a free hit without me being able to block.
- The stab gets blocked and the block stun kicks in, being the least of my worries as it's usually possible to block the next incoming hit with good footwork.
Please don't get me wrong, I don't want the epic lolstab back the way it used to be, but I have to say that 2h stabs have been overnerfed.

Solutions: slightly increase the speed and damage of the stab, around halfway between its current state and its state pre-patch. That way it'll bounce off a little less, which should make the stab useful again, instead of being a suicide button.

Also, agility (mainly Athletics) doesn't seem to do a whole lot atm compared to strength (mainly Power Strike). I don't know if it's possible to increase the effect of Athletics, effectively increasing the movement speed of high-agi players to counter the higher damage offered by having a lot of strength.

PS: The problems I have with my 2h sword occur mostly in the controlled environment of the EU duel server, where they stand out more than in the chaos of a regular siege or battle server.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Khurt on May 23, 2011, 01:39:55 PM
Cavalry are supposed to counter the archers by flanking, but shielders can counter by going head-on. It's simple medieval tactics. :wink:

y, tell this to french at Agincourt

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Sir_Mateusz on May 23, 2011, 02:09:39 PM
cav>archers>footmen>spears>cav
Archer are the best vs cavalry, especialy against horsearchers.They can kill horse very easy.

Cav>infantry>archers>cav this is how it looks.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Khurt on May 23, 2011, 03:12:12 PM
Archer are the best vs cavalry, especialy against horsearchers.They can kill horse very easy.

Cav>infantry>archers>cav this is how it looks.

you are right.
They used cavalry till 1942 because they sucks against ranged -.-

horse archers are not to be take into account for the simple reasons that they are not in standard European armies. Only mongols used them (with great results) against the heavy shielded and armoured Byzantine infantry that could not even reach them.

In this game there are a lot of stupid things, like people jumping like volleyball players with a 30kg plate armor + 2*15kg shields + 6kg sword and kill a charging horseman, but in real world archers could throw one, maybe two volleys before cavalry could cover that 300 meters (long bow range) and slaughtered them.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 23, 2011, 06:28:33 PM
you are right.
They used cavalry till 1942 because they sucks against ranged -.-

horse archers are not to be take into account for the simple reasons that they are not in standard European armies. Only mongols used them (with great results) against the heavy shielded and armoured Byzantine infantry that could not even reach them.

In this game there are a lot of stupid things, like people jumping like volleyball players with a 30kg plate armor + 2*15kg shields + 6kg sword and kill a charging horseman, but in real world archers could throw one, maybe two volleys before cavalry could cover that 300 meters (long bow range) and slaughtered them.

aah yes but English Longbowmen could easily fire 6 arrows a minute so if there were 300 longbowmen in a unit they could fire 1800 a minute so the cav would either be dead already or they would flee, unlikely as it is IF they did carry on charging they would be so few that they would be picked off.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cepeshi on May 23, 2011, 07:24:15 PM
I just want to respond till i forget what i wanted to say and before i had time to read thru the whole post thread.

Anyways, for obvious reasons i choose to nerf polearms (mostly better than their 2h counterparts, either remove stun or lower speed...most of top tier poles have bonus against shield and are on par with dmg with swords, or even better)...after playing for ages with sword i am actually thinking to retire just to go pole, as not loomed pole seems better choice than triple loomed claymore now, if purely for the stun (and nom nom shieldsmash)

Secondly, nerf horses, seriously, way back i was able to dodge lancer with 6 athletics, now i have difficulties doing it with 8 (on my speedy gonzales alt anyways). If a horse bumps me to death while not even running fullspeed, what the hell? And watching horse ballet as you try to avoid some guy is getting quite annoying aswell, the maneuverability is way too high, even for loomed versions...horse should not be able to turn around on nickle and dance like freaking irish man around you, period.

Thirdly, as we saw quite a huge nerf for swords (yeah, i cannot even 1hit most of the horses while they go fullspeed at me, either they dodge or i just make them red :D), i demand the power to be given back! Well, demand, as much as i can from my position :D

Anyways, overall the patch is quite fine, i am playing more chars now as its impossible to rush retirement if i want to try out new spec, and as such it gives better overview of the situation.  Just, why did you changed the bow dmg to pierce on the one bow? Rendered the plate armor totally useless as i got 2shotted from bow in Lordly gothic ...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Sir_Mateusz on May 23, 2011, 08:17:22 PM
aah yes but English Longbowmen could easily fire 6 arrows a minute so if there were 300 longbowmen in a unit they could fire 1800 a minute so the cav would either be dead already or they would flee, unlikely as it is IF they did carry on charging they would be so few that they would be picked off.
Don't forget heavy cavalary is armored and have shields. Its not easy to penetrate fulplate armor with longbow (depends of angle etc). Even if the horse is hit it does not stop charging - herd instinct.
Read about polish Husaria, they very often charge at muskeeters and canons and after battle losees maybe 10% riders.
When musketers shoot they lossen ranks, and tighten when they reload, charging at full speed. And this beautiful 6,2m long lances... pike is about 5-5,5m and goes at an angle :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H0Bds79f4U&feature=related
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 23, 2011, 08:31:36 PM
Don't forget heavy cavalary is armored and have shields. Its not easy to penetrate fulplate armor with longbow (depends of angle etc). Even if the horse is hit it does not stop charging - herd instinct.
Read about polish Husaria, they very often charge at muskeeters and canons and after battle losees maybe 10% riders.
When musketers shoot they lossen ranks, and tighten when they reload, charging at full speed. And this beautiful 6,2m long lances... pike is about 5-5,5m and goes at an angle :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H0Bds79f4U&feature=related

muskets and cannons are way different to bows and arrows
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Khurt on May 23, 2011, 11:35:27 PM
aah yes but English Longbowmen could easily fire 6 arrows a minute so if there were 300 longbowmen in a unit they could fire 1800 a minute so the cav would either be dead already or they would flee, unlikely as it is IF they did carry on charging they would be so few that they would be picked off.

and then? they had no aimbot in XII century. They usually thrown tens of thousands arrows in battles, but they could not kill so many people, due to low accuracy and enemy armors.
Try to hit a horse charging you at 15 m/s. It take 20 seconds to reach you and even if you are the fastest archer in the world, i don't really think you will be able to throw more than 2 aimed arrows.
"horse are bigger and easier to hit" is pointless. An air plane is not easier to catch than a mosquito just because is bigger. But an air plane is not easier to catch than a mosquito just because is faster. It's depend on what are you using: a rocket can easily strike down a jet, but can't even track a mosquito.

Archers sucks in melee 'cause they lacked of armor, armament and training. And what's the fastest way to reach them and start a melee fight? A man with 50+kg armor or a light and fast horse? As i said before, heavy infantry could not even reach archers.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 24, 2011, 07:21:30 AM
It's always funny to see discussions about video game balance devolve into people debating realism and history.

"THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!" he said, as he sat behind his computer screen, after having been killed by arrow fire. He furiously typed, sweat glistening on his brow, "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO KILL ME BECAUSE IN THE 12TH CENTURY-" He continued in that manner well into the night. His character of course wore samurai armor and carried an English bill hook.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Bulzur on May 24, 2011, 12:56:38 PM
It's always funny to see discussions about video game balance devolve into people debating realism and history.

"THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!" he said, as he sat behind his computer screen, after having been killed by arrow fire. He furiously typed, sweat glistening on his brow, "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO KILL ME BECAUSE IN THE 12TH CENTURY-" He continued in that manner well into the night. His character of course wore samurai armor and carried an English bill hook.

+1  :lol:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Khurt on May 24, 2011, 05:26:28 PM
It's always funny to see discussions about video game balance devolve into people debating realism and history.

you didn't get the point :/

it's not a question about realism.
The problem is that people believe in strange (and illogical) thinks and use that to justify changes in game play.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 24, 2011, 11:02:55 PM
you didn't get the point :/

it's not a question about realism.
The problem is that people believe in strange (and illogical) thinks and use that to justify changes in game play.

It sounds like I get the point exactly?  :?:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Soldier_of_God on May 25, 2011, 08:48:49 AM
1.) Buff Horses

Anything below a destrier is practically worthless, save the courser for its exceptional speed. anything above that is far to expensive, and slow as hell, which amounts to death in any battle server.

a.) reduce cost
b.) increase armor
c.) increase health.

choose one or do all three, any of the options would remedy the situation

2.) Buff 2h swords

quite simply, compared to sword and board and polearms, this weapon is weak. its slower and shorter than polearms, and with it you can only defend or attack; not both at the same time, unlike the shield users. what really makes the 2h weapon unique? nothing, thats what.

a.) add 3 speed to all weapons
b.) add 2 damage to all weapons
c.) reduce price by 15%

choose one or do all three, any of these options would make it better.

3.) Nerf polearms

polearms are a very touchy subject because there are many different types; they are very versatile. the concept of the 2h weapon is that one is better than 2. the concept of the polearms is the bigger the better. gamewise, this plays out as the 2h sword being outranged, outdamaged, and most of the time outspeeded. oh yeah, and if you get hit by it, you're stunned.

a.) remove stun animation, which sucks ass anyway, and is VERY disorienting.
b.) slow weapons down by 2 speed
c.) Nerf iron staff; its VERY OP at the moment, being able to one shot my palfrey with a STAB, and if that doesnt do it, its so fast they can swing again.

add

c.) lances can be swung left to right, heavy lance is 75 speed.
d.) add 3 pierce to all thrust attacks.

4.) Nerf Shield

As it stands, shields are VERY strong. TOO STRONG. a buckler can take a dozen arrows with its invisible ghost reach, and a huscarl shield is nigh destructible.

i propose that all shields be reduced by 100 points for high tier, 50 points for mid tier, and 25 points for low tier, OR that shield resistance be reduced drastically.

i say this as a sword and board fan, that also does 2h; SHIELDS ARE OP.

and that is why i voted those.

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gorath on May 25, 2011, 09:03:32 AM
with it you can only defend or attack; not both at the same time, unlike the shield users. what really makes the 2h weapon unique? nothing, thats what.
:shock:
both at the same time


 :lol:
What hack are you using?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: DarkFox on May 25, 2011, 09:22:21 AM
1)Do something with this 2h hordes.Its too easy to play as a 2h right now.
2)Buff throwing.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 25, 2011, 10:34:09 AM
1.) Buff Horses

Anything below a destrier is practically worthless, save the courser for its exceptional speed. anything above that is far to expensive, and slow as hell, which amounts to death in any battle server.

a.) reduce cost
b.) increase armor
c.) increase health.

choose one or do all three, any of the options would remedy the situation

2.) Buff 2h swords

quite simply, compared to sword and board and polearms, this weapon is weak. its slower and shorter than polearms, and with it you can only defend or attack; not both at the same time, unlike the shield users. what really makes the 2h weapon unique? nothing, thats what.

a.) add 3 speed to all weapons
b.) add 2 damage to all weapons
c.) reduce price by 15%

choose one or do all three, any of these options would make it better.

3.) Nerf polearms

polearms are a very touchy subject because there are many different types; they are very versatile. the concept of the 2h weapon is that one is better than 2. the concept of the polearms is the bigger the better. gamewise, this plays out as the 2h sword being outranged, outdamaged, and most of the time outspeeded. oh yeah, and if you get hit by it, you're stunned.

a.) remove stun animation, which sucks ass anyway, and is VERY disorienting.
b.) slow weapons down by 2 speed
c.) Nerf iron staff; its VERY OP at the moment, being able to one shot my palfrey with a STAB, and if that doesnt do it, its so fast they can swing again.

add

c.) lances can be swung left to right, heavy lance is 75 speed.
d.) add 3 pierce to all thrust attacks.

4.) Nerf Shield

As it stands, shields are VERY strong. TOO STRONG. a buckler can take a dozen arrows with its invisible ghost reach, and a huscarl shield is nigh destructible.

i propose that all shields be reduced by 100 points for high tier, 50 points for mid tier, and 25 points for low tier, OR that shield resistance be reduced drastically.

i say this as a sword and board fan, that also does 2h; SHIELDS ARE OP.

and that is why i voted those.

oh my god... please ignore everything this man said. please.

1. cav already rapes lots of face... if you have trouble doing well with cav, you are doing it wrong.

2. 2h sword is the best wep class in the game for 1v1 fighting. polestun is all well and scary but go to a duel server and see what all the top duelists use... 2handers. mostly longswords. 2h is plenty strong as is.

3. pole stun... well i dont really care if its there or not. other than that... poles are good where they are. they have a ton of versatility but are best as teamwork/support weapons, whether poking from behind an ally or killing horses or breaking shields... they are not superior to 2h in 1v1 combat, though they hold their own.

as for your lance changes... no... lances do not need to swing left and right... its already pretty generous that you can even use them off horseback... theres a reason they are a cav only wep. p.s. they do plenty of damage as is.

4. shields are nerfed enough already. i got the benefits of my heirlooms cut in half after i reassigned 3 of my points into heirlooming a shield with the respec. i understand that you dont like shields that dont break in one hit, but deal with it. shields are an excellent teamwork piece of equipment, they cover against ranged weapons, and they allow the user to block multiple enemies at once. p.s. if you are upset that you cant break them fast enough, get an axe... shields are easy to counter unless you are a dedicated archer/xbow. polearms, 2h and 1h all have shield breaker weapons. the same logic leads people to using blunt/pierce weapons to hurt tin cans. you wont see me screaming that we should make all armour give 25% less armour and cost more; instead i bring a pick to the field as my back up weapon.

p.s. you are clearly NOT a sword and board fan.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 25, 2011, 04:56:38 PM
I agree that the nerf to the HL giving it 65 speed seems to of not had an effect on its power (I am a cav) so it can still 1 hit me when not even going at full speed, lower the maneuverability on the Arabian Warhorse. if you think why well then just go watch Tommy zig-zag in and out of every one,  make last second turns when just in font of a wall of something and make the turn easy. that horse is the main horse I see used now its stupid needs to be nerfed. Don't think the shields need a nerf from what I have heard and seen that are as weak as ever, Horses don't need a buff that is a lie personally their fine as they are apart from the Arabian Warhorse as I mentioned above. 2h need a buff since all their weapons with bonus against shield are unbalanced and slow as hell very unfair when you compare to polearms who have a majority or bonus against shield weapons that are fast, long, and powerful so 2h needs a buff or at the very least a fix on the so many unbalanced weapons. I don't think the prices should be lowered by 15%  if they are going to be lowered it should only be but 1K 2 at most since the new prices I see less people running around with Flamberge's and other weapons like that. apart from that every thing seems to be fine I think personally. ooh and DTV needs some sort of fix the peasants on there are sooo OP they can take a hit from and GLA and 9PS its silly when their only in shirts and crappy clothes and the little hatchets that actually damage people in heavy armor is just past stupid so that needs a fix in my eyes.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: AgentQ on May 25, 2011, 09:58:09 PM
2hand is fast as hell! nerf 2 hand speed to sub 90!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hunter_the_Honourable on May 25, 2011, 11:22:17 PM
2hand is fast as hell! nerf 2 hand speed to sub 90!

and 1 handers are not? O_o
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 26, 2011, 01:48:18 AM
and 1 handers are not? O_o

Where did he say they weren't? 1 handers are supposed to be faster.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 26, 2011, 01:43:39 PM
are you freaking talking about 2h´s being op ? clearly you know nothing, prob just some haters.

Have you seen how many people which left 2h swords ? there is a reason for that ? god sake

And Polearm is superior to 2h:
Better reach
better dmg
not getting stunned when you stab
having a sick polearm stun
and they are same speed, or faster. (And its a polearm, its not supose to be as fast as a 2h, specialy not with these stats.)

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: DarkFox on May 26, 2011, 02:05:26 PM
Yeah something should be done.Give +10 speed to all 2h swords,also +15 damage.And thrust should always kill with one hit.All players with 2h sword  should have mental shield that will protect them from ranged.I know,thats not enough and 2h swords will be useless anyway,but 2h users are the most skilled players in crpg,I think they will like such challenge.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Phyrex on May 26, 2011, 02:25:27 PM
are you freaking talking about 2h´s being op ? clearly you know nothing, prob just some haters.

Have you seen how many people which left 2h swords ? there is a reason for that ? god sake

And Polearm is superior to 2h:
Better reach
better dmg
not getting stunned when you stab
having a sick polearm stun
and they are same speed, or faster. (And its a polearm, its not supose to be as fast as a 2h, specialy not with these stats.)

You forgot the horse stopping thrust, majority of the polearms have shieldbreaking, two kinds of stun - weapon stun and hit stun, versatility by having cav equipment and support equipment such as pikes which you can also spam over and behind friendlies on enemies and also spinthrust around friendlies on enemies.

"All the top players are using 2-h Swords, it must be OP! Nerf!" - It's not true, there are alot of good players with other weapons. These very same "top players" would rape you over and over again, regardless of what kind of weapon they use. Why? Because they are far better and more skilled then you. Simple as that. The majority of people I win against when I use a big sword will still lose to me even if I would switch to a stick.

As for why people take certain weapons over other weapons I cannot say, I can only speak for myself. I've used and trained with great swords since late native beta and that's what I'm good at. I also love two-handed swords and litterly get a boner when using one. Also, it's a matter of personal taste, big swords are for Lords and Knights, spears and polearms are for poor peasants and commoners.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: zagibu on May 26, 2011, 03:52:25 PM
Yeah something should be done.Give +10 speed to all 2h swords,also +15 damage.And thrust should always kill with one hit.All players with 2h sword  should have mental shield that will protect them from ranged.I know,thats not enough and 2h swords will be useless anyway,but 2h users are the most skilled players in crpg,I think they will like such challenge.

:)

I also think 2h swords are best still, at least it's what I get most kills with. I don't do as good with pole, and much worse with anything else. Sure, pole has the stun, but 2h bounces less in tight situations.

However, I think if thrown, shields and armor were buffed, the playing field would level out.

Thrown weapons were simply overnerfed. Buff them a little, so that they are about in the middle of where they were before and where they are now.

There is still not enough variation in shields. Buff some of the currently subpar shields, so that we see more shield variation on the battlefield. Also buff shield heirlooming a little.

The problem with current armor is that glances are dependent on potential damage. This is a flaw in the model, as effectiveness against armor does not directly correlate with effectiveness against the human body. A cutting weapon like a sword should bounce off plate armor more frequently than a hammer or an axe. Additionally, I think that high level armor is not effective enough. A full plate set costs more than twice as much as a full mail set, but allows the user to take only 1 hit more, if at all, while severely reducing WPF.

In general, I think the game suffers a bit from the quick leveling. Some weapons are almost obsolete, as you use them maybe for 1h before you move on to a better one. A (not necessarily good) idea to change that might be to calculate a character potential based on equipment cost, then introduce exp bonus for kills and scale it using the character potential of both the victim and the killer. This would result in getting more exp when using cheap weapons.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: DarkFox on May 26, 2011, 04:18:22 PM
The problem is in upkeep, its toooo low.I can have danish greatsword(one of the mightiest weapon imo) and 50 armor, but I will still earn money. No one cares about long axe or bastard sword, you can have great long axe or danish great sword. And if the most of infantry had like 35 armor instead of 50, the balance would change completely.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: AgentQ on May 26, 2011, 04:31:52 PM
check again, those long Polearms speed are 87-90 now. Those 99/98 long swords/Bastard swords are lighting fast.

lastly, these long polearms' weapon length don't translate to long reach of 2 hand animation.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gurnisson on May 26, 2011, 04:42:29 PM
not getting stunned when you stab

Wrong. Both can be stunned when stabbing blocks.

and they are same speed, or faster. (And its a polearm, its not supose to be as fast as a 2h, specialy not with these stats.)

Poles are a tiny bit slower, rather than faster, compared to 2H of the same tier.


I'm not arguing for the sake of nerfing 2Hs or buffing polearms though. I just corrected what you said. I have an alt for both, and I find them fine as it is. 2H are faster and harder to block for the opponent, good for small battles and dueling, while the polearms are tougher (longer and more damaging), and a bit more suited to large battles.

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Fasader on May 26, 2011, 05:34:28 PM
inb4 2h buff
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tristan on May 26, 2011, 05:56:24 PM
"All the top players are using 2-h Swords, it must be OP! Nerf!" - It's not true, there are alot of good players with other weapons. These very same "top players" would rape you over and over again, regardless of what kind of weapon they use. Why? Because they are far better and more skilled then you. Simple as that. The majority of people I win against when I use a big sword will still lose to me even if I would switch to a stick.

Phyrex you have an ability to make memorable quotes. This is even more true than the best of us mediocre players would like to think!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on May 26, 2011, 06:51:10 PM
Wrong. Both can be stunned when stabbing blocks.

Yah, but the duration on the stun is longer on the 2hs. Which is lame since the 2h is the light and fast weapons compared to the heavy, hardhitting and long reach polearms

Poles are a tiny bit slower, rather than faster, compared to 2H of the same tier.

Actually they are same speed, some of em. And that should only happen, with a few small polearms, but its happening with some of the big polearms too. And have you seen all the advantages, they have compared to 2hs ? scroll up and look.

Like this:
Elegant Poleaxe
weapon length: 132
speed rating: 92


And as darkfox said, one of the best 2h's out there danish:
Danish Greatsword
weapon length: 124
speed rating: 92
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: mandible/splinteryourjaw on May 26, 2011, 07:03:06 PM
1.) Buff Horses

Anything below a destrier is practically worthless, save the courser for its exceptional speed. anything above that is far to expensive, and slow as hell, which amounts to death in any battle server.

a.) reduce cost
b.) increase armor
c.) increase health.

choose one or do all three, any of the options would remedy the situation

2.) Buff 2h swords

quite simply, compared to sword and board and polearms, this weapon is weak. its slower and shorter than polearms, and with it you can only defend or attack; not both at the same time, unlike the shield users. what really makes the 2h weapon unique? nothing, thats what.

a.) add 3 speed to all weapons
b.) add 2 damage to all weapons
c.) reduce price by 15%

choose one or do all three, any of these options would make it better.

3.) Nerf polearms

polearms are a very touchy subject because there are many different types; they are very versatile. the concept of the 2h weapon is that one is better than 2. the concept of the polearms is the bigger the better. gamewise, this plays out as the 2h sword being outranged, outdamaged, and most of the time outspeeded. oh yeah, and if you get hit by it, you're stunned.

a.) remove stun animation, which sucks ass anyway, and is VERY disorienting.
b.) slow weapons down by 2 speed
c.) Nerf iron staff; its VERY OP at the moment, being able to one shot my palfrey with a STAB, and if that doesnt do it, its so fast they can swing again.

add

c.) lances can be swung left to right, heavy lance is 75 speed.
d.) add 3 pierce to all thrust attacks.

4.) Nerf Shield

As it stands, shields are VERY strong. TOO STRONG. a buckler can take a dozen arrows with its invisible ghost reach, and a huscarl shield is nigh destructible.

i propose that all shields be reduced by 100 points for high tier, 50 points for mid tier, and 25 points for low tier, OR that shield resistance be reduced drastically.

i say this as a sword and board fan, that also does 2h; SHIELDS ARE OP.

and that is why i voted those.

I won't make a friend here, but I disagree with the cav part of this post (the rest I haven't experienced enough to comment.)  Horses in this game are more like horse gods or transplants from the Matrix.  If a real horse turned the way these do it would break its leg (unless of course its been bred with Barry Sanders.)

My suggestion would be to make horses more expensive, make their up-keep more expensive, and when they die in battle that becomes another (large) added cost.  This would stop people from using horses as battering rams (especially in siege...get real,) throw-away transports to get inside castles faster (i.e. charge up the ramp and over the wall knowing the horse will die, but you escape the front door battle and are behind the siege lines,)  and generally using the horse as a double life (so what if my horse dies I'm still alive.)

Maybe even tying the horse's vitality into the rider's somehow...if this was done though the owner would need the option of "putting the horse to sleep" to avoid losing his/her own life points.  OK that may be a little silly, but something has to be done to make the rider concerned for the horse's health.  Maybe each time the horse dies the rider also gets a D in his K/D.

Not everybody should be able to own a horse, it was a nobleman's prize.  They never recklessly threw the life of the horse away.  They knew the cost.  If you think you are a knight, and rich enough to play with a total disregard to your horse's safety, then you should be willing to pay.  This could also help serve as a gold sink to help normalize and ecomony.

By the way an arrow or slash to the horse should cause it to immediatly rear, fall down, or just go crazy in general......not keep its cool and continue following the riders commands.  There shoud be a period of stun after the horse gets hit to give the rider time to regain control.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gurnisson on May 26, 2011, 07:06:05 PM
Like this:
Elegant Poleaxe
weapon length: 132
speed rating: 92


And as darkfox said, one of the best 2h's out there danish:
Danish Greatsword
weapon length: 124
speed rating: 92

Same speed, yes. Still, Danish has 7 more cut, which is a lot. Also, Danish wins in length because of the grip on polearms (I thought people knew about the rangeloss by now):

(click to show/hide)

Which gives:

Elegant:
    Overhead = 117
    Left-to-right = 125
    Right-to-left = 130
    Thrust = 151

Danish
    Overhead = 139
    Left-to-right = 141
    Right-to-left = 137
    Thrust = 204 (A bit less because of the animation change compared to native)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 26, 2011, 08:21:21 PM
Well, I am a shielder with my main character. I decided to make a polearm/cav alt and a 2hander alt. with the polearm/cav alt i start doing fairly well around level 23 or so. with the 2h alt i started doing alright around level 10, i was even able to go into the duel server and win about 30% of the time (against average players). now that the 2 are higher level... i know i pose pretty much no threat to the top players in duel server when i use my poleax on my polearm alt who is level 29... yet with my level 27 2h alt i keep almost beating top players (if only my sword were mw i woulda done the 2-3 more damage needed to have won!)

anyways, basically... Polearms are great because of their versatility, they are excellent teamwork weapons that allow players to fill different roles but, 2handers are still the champions of melee. Which is fine, It's pretty close, a good 1h or polearm player can definetly beat a 2h on the battlefield where there are all sorts of other things going down, but the 2h is still the overall best 1v1 weapon, i dont think it needs nerfing, but it sure doesnt need buffing.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lech on May 26, 2011, 09:15:21 PM
poleasxes have bonus against shields, you know :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on May 26, 2011, 10:12:54 PM
I voted to nerf all weapon damage of every class.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Soldier_of_God on May 26, 2011, 10:43:48 PM
oh my god... please ignore everything this man said. please.

1. cav already rapes lots of face... if you have trouble doing well with cav, you are doing it wrong.

2. 2h sword is the best wep class in the game for 1v1 fighting. polestun is all well and scary but go to a duel server and see what all the top duelists use... 2handers. mostly longswords. 2h is plenty strong as is.

3. pole stun... well i dont really care if its there or not. other than that... poles are good where they are. they have a ton of versatility but are best as teamwork/support weapons, whether poking from behind an ally or killing horses or breaking shields... they are not superior to 2h in 1v1 combat, though they hold their own.

as for your lance changes... no... lances do not need to swing left and right... its already pretty generous that you can even use them off horseback... theres a reason they are a cav only wep. p.s. they do plenty of damage as is.

4. shields are nerfed enough already. i got the benefits of my heirlooms cut in half after i reassigned 3 of my points into heirlooming a shield with the respec. i understand that you dont like shields that dont break in one hit, but deal with it. shields are an excellent teamwork piece of equipment, they cover against ranged weapons, and they allow the user to block multiple enemies at once. p.s. if you are upset that you cant break them fast enough, get an axe... shields are easy to counter unless you are a dedicated archer/xbow. polearms, 2h and 1h all have shield breaker weapons. the same logic leads people to using blunt/pierce weapons to hurt tin cans. you wont see me screaming that we should make all armour give 25% less armour and cost more; instead i bring a pick to the field as my back up weapon.

p.s. you are clearly NOT a sword and board fan.

1.) Horses are little more than *spay and prey vehicles which are only effective when the victim is unaware, or bent over for the lance. 90% of the time, most people see it coming, and have a 2h weapon, a spear, or something to that effect. if not, they are still capable of swinging their 1h sword at their horse.

*see below

2.) your argument is *inane. just because alot of people use 2h in duel, doesn't mean they are better, does it? its like saying that white people are better than black people because there is more. also, if you haven't noticed, most polearm users are at the top in duel, if they play.

* this is not incorrect spelling.

3.) they are indeed superior, as i use them against 2 handers. war spear, anyone? Bec? also, it makes no sense i cannot swing my lance left and right, as its illogical.

4.) i AM INDEED a shield user, and i hardly ever have my non heirloomed, heavy heater break, unless its against a axe user, and my argument is not that they take alot of abuse, creating a lot of turtles. archers i do this often with :)

p.s. it is clear that you are a rude prick, and you should learn to agree to disagree instead of opening your jowl spewing vile, ill-mannered rebuttals  designed to make me look like a fool. i don't appreciate your drivel, and i don't appreciate your nullifying behavior.

so next time, when you look at someone's honest opinion on a change, i recommend you follow these steps...

1.) read and intelligently, but temperately approach the subject. repeat if successful, or skip to two if not.
2.) if unable to follow 1.), turn computer chair away from desk
3.) promptly pull head out of ass, making sure that the head is clear from the said orifice.
4.) if head is still not out of ass at this point, go see a orthopedist and be sure that your spine is not permanently bent in a U shape from asshatery.

It is one thing to disagree, which im sure many will and have, with my opinion. its another to be a rude asshole about it, and i don't appreciate it in the least.

-1



Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on May 27, 2011, 12:04:04 AM
Where are folks getting that polearms are longer than 2h.....the only ones that are consistently with ping lag included, the exception of the long voulge, can only thrust or overhead. Dont forget, 2h get a range increase on their swings and polearms get a range decrease.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 27, 2011, 12:07:46 AM
1.) Horses are little more than *spay and prey vehicles which are only effective when the victim is unaware, or bent over for the lance. 90% of the time, most people see it coming, and have a 2h weapon, a spear, or something to that effect. if not, they are still capable of swinging their 1h sword at their horse.

*see below

2.) your argument is *inane. just because alot of people use 2h in duel, doesn't mean they are better, does it? its like saying that white people are better than black people because there is more. also, if you haven't noticed, most polearm users are at the top in duel, if they play.

* this is not incorrect spelling.

3.) they are indeed superior, as i use them against 2 handers. war spear, anyone? Bec? also, it makes no sense i cannot swing my lance left and right, as its illogical.

4.) i AM INDEED a shield user, and i hardly ever have my non heirloomed, heavy heater break, unless its against a axe user, and my argument is not that they take alot of abuse, creating a lot of turtles. archers i do this often with :)

p.s. it is clear that you are a rude prick, and you should learn to agree to disagree instead of opening your jowl spewing vile, ill-mannered rebuttals  designed to make me look like a fool. i don't appreciate your drivel, and i don't appreciate your nullifying behavior.

so next time, when you look at someone's honest opinion on a change, i recommend you follow these steps...

1.) read and intelligently, but temperately approach the subject. repeat if successful, or skip to two if not.
2.) if unable to follow 1.), turn computer chair away from desk
3.) promptly pull head out of ass, making sure that the head is clear from the said orifice.
4.) if head is still not out of ass at this point, go see a orthopedist and be sure that your spine is not permanently bent in a U shape from asshatery.

It is one thing to disagree, which im sure many will and have, with my opinion. its another to be a rude asshole about it, and i don't appreciate it in the least.

-1

1. horses are supposed to be opportunists. its their job to pick off people who dont see it coming. secondly, expert cav players can outrange any 2h and almost all polearms with a heavy lance by using it properly, the true champions of cav can out decimate fully aware pike users. Basically, cav is plenty strong.

2. I never said there are more 2h in duels than anything else, I said most of the top duelists use 2h. yes there are scary polearm users, and scary 1handers... but id say 80% of the top duelists are 2h.

3. polearms are very useful in battle as they can fulfill many rolls. i already said that. but i maintain that in a straight up 1v1 fight, 2handers are superior overall.

4. i never said you dont use shield, i said you are not a sword and board fan. no real sword and board fan would be asking to nerf shields. they already gimp your attack and movement speed quite a bit. shields have 3 advantages... they block ranged, they can block multiple directions at once, and they require less thought in regards to block direction. in exchange for those gains, you lose damage, and speed, oh and you have to use a 1h which generally means less reach and dont forget all the skill points you have to dump into shield, which usually means you have 36 attribute points (18-18 for example) compared to all the 2h and pole builds that can convert 6 more points to attributes (21-18 for example).

p.s. your post was significantly more offensive than mine. I was being slightly dickish, you were be completely dickish.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 27, 2011, 02:49:09 AM
its like saying that white people are better than black people because there is more.

Because we get to choose our skin colour at birth like people choose to play 2 handers? Crap, I must have missed the drop down menu that let me select it while I was in the womb.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: San on May 27, 2011, 04:18:45 AM
I just want to have every main build viable, really, but not overcentralizing.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kenji on May 27, 2011, 12:48:11 PM
May I say that it is likely the average player will vote to buff their most used playstyle and nerf their natural counter. I don't see how this will give you any accurate data, but welcome the chance to offer honest feedback nonetheless.
Not entirely true (In my case, anyways.)

I have an alt that uses steel shield, and I find it too powerful against anything except weapons that have bonus on shields.

Thus I voted to nerf the shields, while I find myself in favor of shielder characters best.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Frell on May 27, 2011, 05:44:49 PM
voting closes june 5th? what the hell
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Sharky on May 27, 2011, 07:48:18 PM
Polearms doesn't need a nerf, they are indeed more versatile then 2h weapons, but on 1vs1 fight polearms tend to loose. 2h weapons might seems shorter, but as other said polearms are shorter then their stats suggest.
Also with 2h is easier to feint, they are more difficult to block and they are useful in closed spaces too, while most of polearms can't.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 27, 2011, 08:10:40 PM
Polearms doesn't need a nerf, they are indeed more versatile then 2h weapons, but on 1vs1 fight polearms tend to loose. 2h weapons might seems shorter, but as other said polearms are shorter then their stats suggest.
Also with 2h is easier to feint, they are more difficult to block and they are useful in closed spaces too, while most of polearms can't.

Polearms have the advantage of having a crapload of very good weapons. Fast, long, hard hitting blunt, knockdown (!!!) weapons that aren't unbalanced, many bonus vs shields axes without the unbalanced tag, yet being very long and fast.

Imo we need to fix the stun somehow. Maybe reducing the speed. And another good change would be making a completly separate weapon type for pikes, awlpikes, bills, halberds and lances (any polearm without side swings) vs other polearms. To separate those that really are polearms, which aren't OP at all, and the others with 4 attack directions which basicaly are disguised two handers and are a little OP atm, given the right build, but still.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Rhaelys on May 27, 2011, 08:36:44 PM
I find it amusing that once 2Hs were nerfed, polearms suddenly became ungodly overpowered, even though polearms as a whole have not seen any major buffs for many months now. I guess people were too busy complaining about being lolstabbed and lolslashed by everyone and their greatswords, and archers and their longswords.

Remember the Looney Toons Axe? Or the old Bec de Corbin? Or the poleaxes from when they were first introduced? Or the Long Hafted Spiked Mace a few months ago?

I switched over from 2Hs to polearms a few months ago. Although polearms have received no buffs during that time period (they have either been nerfed or seen no changes), my weapon has magically gone from unexceptional to SUPERGODPROHAXNERFNAO. I truly cannot offer an explanation for this.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: RandomDude on May 27, 2011, 09:53:34 PM
I find it amusing that once 2Hs were nerfed, polearms suddenly became ungodly overpowered, even though polearms as a whole have not seen any major buffs for many months now. I guess people were too busy complaining about being lolstabbed and lolslashed by everyone and their greatswords, and archers and their longswords.

Remember the Looney Toons Axe? Or the old Bec de Corbin? Or the poleaxes from when they were first introduced? Or the Long Hafted Spiked Mace a few months ago?

I switched over from 2Hs to polearms a few months ago. Although polearms have received no buffs during that time period (they have either been nerfed or seen no changes), my weapon has magically gone from unexceptional to SUPERGODPROHAXNERFNAO. I truly cannot offer an explanation for this.

Its bcos all weapons except 2h have become overpowered and 2h needs some buffs like the ability to block arrows with downblock (or something like that.)

If this ability is given only to the flamberge because of its awesomeness I wont complain either.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 27, 2011, 11:26:44 PM
Clearly the only solution is to give 2handers a special move... i think if they press forward up back down forward then attack they should be able to send a WIND SLICE across the battlefield to one shot anyone in the way. that would be fair, i think it is necessary for the underpowered 2handers.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corrado_Decimo on May 28, 2011, 03:29:28 AM
Clearly the only solution is to give 2handers a special move... i think if they press forward up back down forward then attack they should be able to send a WIND SLICE across the battlefield to one shot anyone in the way. that would be fair, i think it is necessary for the underpowered 2handers.

nah we don't need that... we can still reroll a shielder alt with a steelshield autoblock mode.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 28, 2011, 06:36:08 AM
Clearly the only solution is to give 2handers a special move... i think if they press forward up back down forward then attack they should be able to send a WIND SLICE across the battlefield to one shot anyone in the way. that would be fair, i think it is necessary for the underpowered 2handers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUcLGqm6eXI

Aww yeah babe
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Mala on May 28, 2011, 11:24:03 AM
But thats a shielder.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 28, 2011, 01:22:37 PM
Well... with time, people earn experience and can min/max builds, get more heirloom points and so on.


In fact you can expect something that was ok a few months ago to become overpowered as habits change and people learn to exploit broken features better.

Even the looney tunes axe survived a very long time, because until it's very end there wasn't any char that was fast enough to use it effectively, and very few players were using it.

Now that many 2 handers have gone polearm and I also suspect some throwers, archers that liked the melee part and 1h that lost too much damage with the heirloom nerf to have switch for polearms, some issues arise. Furthermore, we try to promote diversity on the battlefield. Even if polearms aren't overpowered (honestly I think some of them were and still are), everyone shouldn't use them.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: verinen on May 28, 2011, 03:25:25 PM
nerf 2h&polearm speed. That's all.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tears of Destiny on May 28, 2011, 05:04:54 PM
But thats a shielder.

Actuallythatis normally a two hander, just the guy went a bit nuts with str broke human limits and is using it as a dirk.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Wallace on May 28, 2011, 05:56:14 PM
Going on record that I've never played a shield character and I voted shield get buffed
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Wallace on May 28, 2011, 06:00:08 PM
Clearly the only solution is to give 2handers a special move... i think if they press forward up back down forward then attack they should be able to send a WIND SLICE across the battlefield to one shot anyone in the way. that would be fair, i think it is necessary for the underpowered 2handers.

See: sword of Ianna from Blade of Darkness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDWZdglAPXg
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: zagibu on May 29, 2011, 02:50:06 AM
Blade of Darkness was an awesome game.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ManOfWar on May 30, 2011, 12:23:28 AM
Can we see the results already?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on May 30, 2011, 12:25:35 AM
Suggestion that will make everyone hate me....

Nerf, everything.....just too many weapons that are way too effective.


Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 30, 2011, 03:50:15 AM
Suggestion that will make everyone hate me....

Nerf, everything.....just too many weapons that are way too effective.

Naw, go ahead. With some exception, everything kills everyone too fast. NERF THE WHOLE THIIINNGGG.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gristle on May 30, 2011, 11:28:17 AM
I won't be happy until the stick is the only viable weapon.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Timotheusthereal on May 30, 2011, 01:35:17 PM
We really need to buff throwing system! But enough so we dont have lance throwers running around the map...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Wrenaq_Lars on May 30, 2011, 03:57:52 PM
wow looking at the results so far its pretty even, does this suggest nothing really needs to be changed?
except buffing thrown?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ManOfWar on May 30, 2011, 04:02:59 PM
Wow buff one handers got a decent amount of points. hmm

AND THROW THE THROWERS A BONE
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: okiN on May 30, 2011, 04:14:57 PM
The strongest votes by a fair margin (taking into account the amount of opposite votes) are:

Buff thrown (clear winner)
Nerf polearms
Buff 1h
Nerf crossbows
Buff armour
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gurnisson on May 30, 2011, 04:23:10 PM
Buff 1H? Is this a joke?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Phazey on May 30, 2011, 04:26:43 PM
To me, that poll proves that most people just vote whatever they want nerfed / buffed instead of what they really think would benefit the balance of the game.  :|
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Wrenaq_Lars on May 30, 2011, 04:27:09 PM
TO me, that poll proves that most people just vote whatever they want nerfed / buffed instead of what they really think would benefit the balance of the game.  :|
yup this
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: okiN on May 30, 2011, 04:29:24 PM
To me, that poll proves that most people just vote whatever they want nerfed / buffed instead of what they really think would benefit the balance of the game.  :|

Well, I had thought this might be the case, but if it was, I would have expected a lot more votes to buff 2h, nerf horses and nerf shields.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on May 30, 2011, 04:33:20 PM
What need to be done about thrower :
Put back for most of throwin weapon the number per rack that they had before.
Throwing lance must be 3 per rack and put back the damage they used to do.
Higher every level of difficulty of thowing weapon. Throwing lance must need 9 point at throwing;
So it will not increase terribly the number of thrower , but it will give chances to REAL thrower to play their style of game as other may do.
Of course they were people who voted for their own profit. But there is also a lot of people who belongs to a clan and don't want their friend style to be nerfer. And the goal of statistics is to erase parasite and extract the real trend. And i think that okin did it well


Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Phazey on May 30, 2011, 04:34:45 PM
Well, I had thought this might be the case, but if it was, I would have expected a lot more votes to buff 2h, nerf horses and nerf shields.
Well maybe some of those 2h spammers have a 1h alt or aspire to become cav one day.

Just the fact that 'Nerf throwing' got 89 votes says it all...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: okiN on May 30, 2011, 04:38:16 PM
Well, obviously there are plenty of trolls and/or shameless interest-seekers on the poll, but I think the fact that throwing buff still won by such a wide margin reflects the fact that there's some honesty there as well. There's no reason to think 1h players would vote for their own interests any more actively than others.

For example, my only vote was to buff thrown.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Espu on May 30, 2011, 04:41:47 PM
We'll see about that.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Phazey on May 30, 2011, 04:43:06 PM
Yeh... once you have an alt in just about every class, all you want is good balance. I voted 'buff thrown' and nothing else aswell.

But 89 votes for nerf throwing whilst we all know throwing has been nerfed into nothingness. Pure evil, i say.  :twisted:
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gurnisson on May 30, 2011, 04:46:52 PM
Yeh... once you have an alt in just about every class, all you want is good balance. I voted 'buff thrown' and nothing else as well.

Same, I also have an alt for everything. Throwing is the only thing that needs some tweaking.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Christo on May 30, 2011, 04:47:32 PM
Buff 1H.. yeah Buff the class that got 3 buffs in a row, while other melee types got nerfed.

lol
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Glaurung on May 30, 2011, 06:49:11 PM
Buff throwing!

I used 100wpf and 5 powerthrow all for 2 stupid axes that won't even kill someone if by chance I hit them twice.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on May 30, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
i have a char 134 wpf + 8Power throw and throwing lance don't even kill archer or low level
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ThePoopy on May 30, 2011, 07:04:18 PM
throwing should get buffed aim and +50% slot for all weps
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: marco1391 on May 30, 2011, 07:24:23 PM
The strongest votes by a fair margin (taking into account the amount of opposite votes) are:

Buff thrown (clear winner)
Nerf polearms
Buff 1h
Buff horses
Nerf two handed weapons
Nerf crossbows
Buff armour
fixed
however I suggest to take into consideration also the various opinion and not only the selected options(I know it could be hard given the 22 pages of the topic)
exemple: I don't think horses should get an all around bonus, but eventually a balance with more health/armor and  less manouvrability(and I say this as a cav player, playing with the arabian warhorse is simply insane)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 30, 2011, 07:50:49 PM
Throwing seems to be the biggest consensus (12.8% of the total votes and 9.6% for buff)
Then, the second hottest topic is horses (12.2% of votes, 7% for buffing and 5.2% for nerfing)

Next we have 2h, polearms and bows around 11,2% of votes, with a majority of nerfing for the two first and even scores for the latter.

And then the less interesting subjects are 1h, crossbows, armor and finally shields, all under 10% of votes, although tendencies are strong inside these (apart from shields) :

7.1 for buffing 1h against 2.9
6.3 for nerfing xbows against 3.1
5.9 for buffing armor against 2.9
4.4 for buffing shields and 4.2% for nerfing.

Finally, 4.5% consider this mod balanced/don't give a fuck.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Polobow on May 30, 2011, 08:14:08 PM
To me, that poll proves that most people just vote whatever they want nerfed / buffed instead of what they really think would benefit the balance of the game.  :|

Agreed. I actually voted for the balance, asked for buffing throwing and nerfing cav, as a polearm user.

Wait.
Aw crap D: . Why didn't i notice it?:mad: . Is it normal that a war horse needs 2/3 stabs from a pike to die? And, well, the throwing should actually be buffed? I see no-one running around with it. Not that i'm saying if few people use it, it is underpowered, but the tradeoffs are too big when you want to go mainly throwing.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: RamsesXXIIX on May 30, 2011, 08:15:57 PM
Finally, 4.5% consider this mod balanced/don't give a fuck.

I do give a bloody fuck, but i don't want any more "fixes". I find the mod very balanced (Maybe ONLY except throwing), and that is my opinion. I believe the people who voted that option give just as much to balance as the rest.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on May 30, 2011, 08:25:33 PM
I've made a few charts to help people have a better overview of the survey. Moderatormay you put the chart in main page?
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


And some stats :
Buff-Nerf = 182 out of 2632  so people didn't vote only to nerf or only to buff
Total buff vote=  1407 out of 2632
Total Nerf vote = 1225 out of 2632

Throw = 175 big buff ( more than 150)
One handed = 116 good buff (more than 100)
Armor = 82 middle buff (more than 50)
Horses = 48 Little buff ( more or less equal to 50 )
Shield and bows = 3 and -2 nothing to do
two handed weapon = -40 middle nerf
Crossbow = -89 good nerf
Polearm = -111  good nerf

Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 30, 2011, 09:54:29 PM
Despite the majority of people not taking this seriously, and doing a "buff what I use, nerf what kills me" vote, there is some actually really useful data here. Especially looking at the handy graphs Cosmos_Shielder put together. That last one is perfect. Even with all the crap voting, some honest data shone through. I think what made it work was giving people the option to vote for both buffs and nerfs, which helped balance the data overall. Really nice to see. I have a thread about throwing balance in the balance section of the forums if any devs decide to act on this data. It would be pretty awesome if some discussion and player input got considered before a decision was made.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5402.0.html
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Keshian on May 30, 2011, 10:24:22 PM
Agreed. I actually voted for the balance, asked for buffing throwing and nerfing cav, as a polearm user.

Wait.
Aw crap D: . Why didn't i notice it?:mad: . Is it normal that a war horse needs 2/3 stabs from a pike to die? And, well, the throwing should actually be buffed? I see no-one running around with it. Not that i'm saying if few people use it, it is underpowered, but the tradeoffs are too big when you want to go mainly throwing.

Actually I have beens eeing a lot of champion coursers needing 3 stabs froma  pike before dying so they usually get a nother dozen kills even after they run into a wall twice and get their horse stabbed.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Bulzur on May 30, 2011, 11:38:02 PM
I'm just amazed at one thing looking at the stats, it's the "buff one handed weapon".  :shock:
The fact that we can change our vote, makes me want to change my vote and add a "nerf one handed weapon", so that it gets balanced... i mean, imo, one handed are pretty well balanced already, and in all thoses 22 pages, i didn't saw one argumental post about 1h being useless or whatever...

Or do we just have a big 1h community, who votes for "nerfing 2h/polearms", and since they weren't sure if the vote would pass, they added a "buff 1h" for themselves ?

Thanks Cosmos-Shielder for the graphs, but it really shows some strange things... Horses don't need a buff but a fix (more armor/hp, less speed, maneuver), 2h is pretty fine (it's not the community fault if GOOD players tend to play 2h and polearms -_- if they own you because they know how to feint/block, etc... it's not a reason for a nerf....), polearm need a lower stun, or have it completely removed; and crossbow need some added skillpoints, or some overall "little" nerf.

Armor should indeed be a bit more usefull, but that will actually :
-nerf all cut weapon (low tiers bows till strongbow, swords with no pierce stab, etc...)
-lower the diversity, since if armor is that usefull, then better take the best ratio effectiveness/price one.
I understand people want to live longer, but then :
- it's all the game that will get slower
- backstabbing by surprise will loose it's effectiveness since you won't kill in one overhead
- we'll see less awesome 1v5 plays, since the 1 guy can't 2 hit an ennemy anymore.
- ranged will be even MORE support than now, favoring big damage in one time instead of spamming. (more xbows ! )

And all this will lead to a :
-Nerf Pick.
-Nerf (again) Bec de Corbin
-Nerf all blunt weapon/pierce melee weapon, etc...



I seriously hope devs can take the information this polls gives while also taking it with caution. It's quite funny how some people only care about them, and not the greater good.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Matey on May 30, 2011, 11:55:01 PM
i voted nerf armour :D

also, i think 1h is fine as is... if anything id say lower reach on some of the 1handers...
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Blondin on May 31, 2011, 01:29:03 AM
I wonder what will be good to nerf/buff to have fair/interesting/tactical battles in Strategus.

We all know that archery was the most in former Strat battles, archery seems to be fine now, but will it still be the most?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: EyeBeat on May 31, 2011, 02:26:33 PM
i voted nerf armour :D

also, i think 1h is fine as is... if anything id say lower reach on some of the 1handers...

I also voted nerf armor.  There is something wrong wen I have to use 5+ over head swings to kill a tin can using my MW broad one handed axe.  It is insane.

Now I am even having to 3 hit these tin can crossbowman that can shoot right through my shield. 
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: AgentQ on May 31, 2011, 06:02:31 PM
try kill a tin can with an one hand axe... it's going to take a while  :D
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on May 31, 2011, 06:12:07 PM
I think you guys can safely assume that the "buff armor" vote was quite a few people saying "I wear armor, lets buff that!" Since more people wear armor then don't. I agree that plate is already pretty effective.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 31, 2011, 06:58:47 PM
I think you guys can safely assume that the "buff armor" vote was quite a few people saying "I wear armor, lets buff that!" Since more people wear armor then don't. I agree that plate is already pretty effective.

I'd like it if the buff wasn't a stat buff, but a price decrease for armors.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: DarkFox on May 31, 2011, 08:10:13 PM
Quote
but a price decrease for armors.
LOL
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on May 31, 2011, 08:57:03 PM
LOL

Mmh... You think prices are low enough or my english wasn't right ?  :?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Ylca on May 31, 2011, 09:00:55 PM
Mmh... You think prices are low enough or my english wasn't right ?  :?

Cheap armor is as effective as its price would indicate. Midrange armors are wearable every round by most and offer a decent protection of speed and damage absorption. At the top end of the spectrum is plate which makes you superhuman, but also slower (in theory) and is expensive to maintain before one has a deep bankroll.

What is the problem with armor that people are discussing?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Bulzur on May 31, 2011, 09:04:49 PM
I'd like it if the buff wasn't a stat buff, but a price decrease for armors.

EXCEPT, that chadz wrote in the opening message :"buff <item class> - would I like the fact that every item in that class would get it's stats increased by 5%."
So... nop, it definitely won't be a price decrease anyway.

@Cheapshot : I didn't even thought of that !  :shock: How smart of you. It proves that theres nearly this many people that vote to buff what they're using without second thought of balance. (some of them posted that they wanted to "last" for longer in duels", unlike all thoses 1h buffs that come from nowhere)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Punisher on May 31, 2011, 09:05:55 PM
The close results seem to confirm that everything is pretty balanced, the only one standing out is throwing that is being worked on anyway.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: ArchonAlarion on May 31, 2011, 09:12:39 PM
I think you guys can safely assume that the "buff armor" vote was quite a few people saying "I wear armor, lets buff that!" Since more people wear armor then don't. I agree that plate is already pretty effective.

I voted buff armor because plate should shrug off everything but heavy 2H, high power pierce, and crossbows. I would like it to be expensive as it is effective too. Also, base health should be lowered, to increase the gap between low and high armors. This is entirely for realism purposes and not because I personally think plate is neato.

There are too many alterations on my wish list to simply get away with asking for "armor buff" and having people understand why it would still be fair and cool. Its not as simple as that.

I'm really getting tired of both the people who ask for changes because of their personal play style and the people who assume that is everyone's motive.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cheap_Shot on June 01, 2011, 03:41:58 AM
The close results seem to confirm that everything is pretty balanced, the only one standing out is throwing that is being worked on anyway.

Cool. Any word on what changes are in the works? I've been trying to get dev people into the game balance discussion forum but I've had no luck. While it is cool that everyone thinks throwing needs buffs, a cross board +5% damage or whatever wont actually do much for it so it'd be cool to discuss it with devs over there.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Paul on June 01, 2011, 06:26:56 AM
I still have my old "nerf soak, buff reduce" idea that would be an indirect buff to 1handers because bounce offs would be less likely as a result of the weaker soak. On the other side 1 or 2 hit death against heavier armor would become rarer with a stronger reduce effect, which is an indirect nerf to crossbows and heavy hitters. But I guess people like their glancing blows too much for this change to happen.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tydeus on June 01, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
try kill a tin can with an one hand axe... it's going to take a while  :D
Try killing a tin can with a katana or any other speedy 2h weapon, it's going to take nearly as long as if it were 1 hander. Probably only 1 or 2 hit difference at most, which is how it should be, otherwise there'd be absolutely no reason to use a two-hander, now would there?

The close results seem to confirm that everything is pretty balanced, the only one standing out is throwing that is being worked on anyway.
Definitely, You simply can't ignore the 125 votes of "leave everything as it is". Subtract 125 from all the buff/nerfs of each option and it's a much more telling picture. Then you have to account for the people who voted to buff/nerf a class simply because it's their class or the counter to their class. Cosmos' graphs are nice, but they don't take either of these two things into account. I also don't know of a single skilled one-hander that thinks they need a buff so really, aside from the buff to throwing, I wouldn't imagine much needs to be done.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Espu on June 01, 2011, 08:43:15 AM
We intend to post anonymized vote data matched with forum accounts set character main class. This allows doing all kinds of cool stuff, like what classes want to buff what and so on.

If you want your votes to include class data, be sure to set your main char.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Corwin on June 01, 2011, 09:38:52 AM
To be honest, the longer I play after this patch, more I feel as if the balance is almost achieved. I would like to see some weapons nerfed of buffed, and I think that upkeep for horses should be higher, but overall I have to say - good job, guys.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: okiN on June 01, 2011, 11:28:06 AM
You simply can't ignore the 125 votes of "leave everything as it is". Subtract 125 from all the buff/nerfs of each option and it's a much more telling picture. Then you have to account for the people who voted to buff/nerf a class simply because it's their class or the counter to their class. Cosmos' graphs are nice, but they don't take either of these two things into account.

You're being silly, for two reasons.

a) 125 votes for no change, yes, but out of 973. I don't know about you, but to me that suggests most people still want to see something changed. Now, we have how many poll options? 19. So what you're trying to do is to count each of those "no change" votes no less than 18 times. The correct number to subtract would be seven votes from each other option. Hardly much of an issue, and honestly a pretty pointless thing to do in the first place.

b) You don't have access to that data, so it's useless to speculate about. Best thing to do is assume it's more or less equal for all cases and look at the balance of nerf/buff votes, like Cosmos did -- at least while we wait for what Vargas has to say.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Toffi on June 01, 2011, 12:15:10 PM
wtf nerf polearms and buff thrown... you guys are sick
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tydeus on June 01, 2011, 03:34:13 PM
You're being silly, for two reasons.

a) 125 votes for no change, yes, but out of 973. I don't know about you, but to me that suggests most people still want to see something changed. Now, we have how many poll options? 19. So what you're trying to do is to count each of those "no change" votes no less than 18 times. The correct number to subtract would be seven votes from each other option. Hardly much of an issue, and honestly a pretty pointless thing to do in the first place.

b) You don't have access to that data, so it's useless to speculate about. Best thing to do is assume it's more or less equal for all cases and look at the balance of nerf/buff votes, like Cosmos did -- at least while we wait for what Vargas has to say.
A) This entire part makes zero sense to me, for multiple reasons. First, and the least important reason, I'm not sure where you're getting 17. With how you're suggesting to weigh the "no change" votes, there is no way that these votes could have an effect on the poll anyway. You're adding 17 to both sides of an equation. There can't be a change unless one vote already has fewer than 17 votes to begin with. These votes mean nothing because of how you're weighing them. Also, no less than 18 votes? A "no change" vote would be more accurately examined by simply adding a "no change" option for all 9 classes. Thus it's 9 votes, not 18, it's not the same as having both a buff and a nerf vote.

A better way would be: A "buff" vote representing a 1, a "nerf" as -1 and a "no change", as 0. Cosmos already did this with his graph, he just left out the 0 part.

Using throwing as an example to see the significant impact:
(264(1)+89(-1)+125(0))/(264+89+125) = 0.37 37% in favor of a throwing buff
If you ignore the "no change" options, you get:
(264-89)/(264+89) = .50 50% in favor of a throwing buff
Quite a bit different, though it's still easy to see either way, that throwing needs a buff.

B) You're right. I was merely suggesting that people should keep that in mind when they look at his graphs. I don't actually see where I was speculating about these things either, just bearing mention to the fact that his graphs are obviously missing this data. The problem with pretty graphs like that, is that people don't do their own analysis of the data and just assume that what a graph shows, is final.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: okiN on June 01, 2011, 04:49:17 PM
Okay, let's see here...

A) This entire part makes zero sense to me, for multiple reasons. First, and the least important reason, I'm not sure where you're getting 17.

I'm not sure where you're getting 17. I don't see myself using that number even once in the entire post.

With how you're suggesting to weigh the "no change" votes, there is no way that these votes could have an effect on the poll anyway. You're adding 17 to both sides of an equation. There can't be a change unless one vote already has fewer than 17 votes to begin with. These votes mean nothing because of how you're weighing them

Yes, that's why I said it was pointless, because I thought that was what you were trying to do. Now you're still wrong, just for different reasons. :P

Also, no less than 18 votes? A "no change" vote would be more accurately examined by simply adding a "no change" option for all 9 classes. Thus it's 9 votes, not 18, it's not the same as having both a buff and a nerf vote.

Sorry, I was confused by your wording: "Subtract 125 from all the buff/nerfs of each option and it's a much more telling picture." Let's say you were only trying to count each "no change" vote nine times, then. What I don't get is why, after making this clarification, you go right on doing it, and insist on applying the total number of general "no change" votes individually to each of the specific item types. TBH, nothing about the next part is very clear.

A better way would be: A "buff" vote representing a 1, a "nerf" as -1 and a "no change", as 0. Cosmos already did this with his graph, he just left out the 0 part.

Using throwing as an example to see the significant impact:
(264(1)+89(-1)+125(0))/(264+89+125) = 0.37 37% in favor of a throwing buff
If you ignore the "no change" options, you get:
(264-89)/(264+89) = .50 50% in favor of a throwing buff
Quite a bit different, though it's still easy to see either way, that throwing needs a buff.

This just doesn't work no matter how I look at it. Are you trying to calculate the total percentage of voters who support buffing throwing? That's 264/973 for 27%. If you wanted the total percentage of people who wanted some kind of change to throwing, that'd be 353/973 for 36%. But what's this you're trying to do? It's nonsense math.

I mean, let's look at what you're actually doing here: it looks like you've tried to calculate the percentage of throw buff voters out of the people who either voted for one of the throwing changes or for no change at all. Except you didn't even do that right, because the -89 and the +125 don't belong in the dividend. Anyway, it's a number, but it's not really meaningful or relevant on any level.

The second part doesn't make any sense, either. If it was 264/353 then you'd have 75%, which is the percentage of people who voted to buff throwing out of those who wanted some kind of change. This, at least, would be something. But adding the -89 to the first part means you don't even get that.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Tydeus on June 01, 2011, 05:40:07 PM
I'm not sure where you're getting 17. I don't see myself using that number even once in the entire post.
I meant 7.

I failed to realize one simple thing, that is: If someone casts only one vote to buff their class, they're actually voting 8 other times for "no change".

Indeed I was being silly, the whole issue to begin with was silly. The focus should have been on the fact that there were indeed 973 total voters but only, technically, 353 relating to throwing. So indeed, my issue with the 125 votes not being counted was flawed from the start, I should have simply focused on all of the votes that weren't placed for either buffing/nerfing a specific item type. So it should be (264-89)/973(as this is the true total vote number).

The reason it's necessary to have it in this form, rather than Cosmos' (264-89) to show the effective votes, is that this doesn't put the numbers in perspective at all, it doesn't relate them to anything. Basically the difference is that were you to make a graph on my formula(simply taking his totals and dividing by the total number of voters) is that it actually relates the same data to the total votes, thus taking into consideration the "no change" votes.

Sorry for being an idiot initially, but the problem still remained, I was just forgetting that one detail.

so it would be (264-89)/973 = 18% votes for a buff after taking into consideration the nerf votes, which offset some of the buff votes.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: okiN on June 01, 2011, 06:00:39 PM
so it would be (264-89)/973 = 18% votes for a buff after taking into consideration the nerf votes, which offset some of the buff votes.

No, like I said, that's a mistake. The nerf votes are already included in the total, that step leads to a wrong result. The correct way to do it is 264/973 for 27%. :)

The reason it's necessary to have it in this form, rather than Cosmos' (264-89) to show the effective votes, is that this doesn't put the numbers in perspective at all, it doesn't relate them to anything. Basically the difference is that were you to make a graph on my formula(simply taking his totals and dividing by the total number of voters) is that it actually relates the same data to the total votes, thus taking into consideration the "no change" votes.

The real point of Cosmos' graphs is to compare the relative voting strengths of the various proposed changes. Their relation to the total is secondary.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on June 01, 2011, 07:57:20 PM
I meant 7.

I failed to realize one simple thing, that is: If someone casts only one vote to buff their class, they're actually voting 8 other times for "no change".

Indeed I was being silly, the whole issue to begin with was silly. The focus should have been on the fact that there were indeed 973 total voters but only, technically, 353 relating to throwing. So indeed, my issue with the 125 votes not being counted was flawed from the start, I should have simply focused on all of the votes that weren't placed for either buffing/nerfing a specific item type. So it should be (264-89)/973(as this is the true total vote number).

The reason it's necessary to have it in this form, rather than Cosmos' (264-89) to show the effective votes, is that this doesn't put the numbers in perspective at all, it doesn't relate them to anything. Basically the difference is that were you to make a graph on my formula(simply taking his totals and dividing by the total number of voters) is that it actually relates the same data to the total votes, thus taking into consideration the "no change" votes.

Sorry for being an idiot initially, but the problem still remained, I was just forgetting that one detail.

so it would be (264-89)/973 = 18% votes for a buff after taking into consideration the nerf votes, which offset some of the buff votes.
Your way of calculating shows nothing.
Because if you sum all category you don't obtain 100% . You can't make percentage if the totall is not 100%. This is manipulating people .
You just make me think of Michael E Mann : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy
If you want to make percentage do it in the right way (classbuf/Sum(buff)*100) or call it Score and not percentage.
My graph as says okin are to compare the difference between classes. I could have normalised that with a linear transformation to put throwers vote to 100 and relate the other to this.
Anyway admin have more date than us , since they know who voted for what. 
I'll add a graph with buff+nerf to show how people are concerned by each class
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Cosmos_Shielder on June 01, 2011, 08:18:32 PM
How Much do people care of each class.
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If we take this in consideration we can see that people care about thrower and moreover they want them to be buffed. Where as people care less about one handed
I've made a few charts to help people have a better overview of the survey. Moderatormay you put the chart in main page?
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And some stats :
Buff-Nerf = 182 out of 2632  so people didn't vote only to nerf or only to buff
Total buff vote=  1407 out of 2632
Total Nerf vote = 1225 out of 2632

Throw = 175 big buff ( more than 150)
One handed = 116 good buff (more than 100)
Armor = 82 middle buff (more than 50)
Horses = 48 Little buff ( more or less equal to 50 )
Shield and bows = 3 and -2 nothing to do
two handed weapon = -40 middle nerf
Crossbow = -89 good nerf
Polearm = -111  good nerf
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Vibe on June 02, 2011, 10:29:11 AM
TOP:
Buff one handed
Nerf 2h & pole


okay.jpg
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kenouse on June 02, 2011, 01:28:55 PM
What is it with all the hate for shielders.
Is it not obvious that archers cant shoot a shielder at the front? I thought that was the idea with the shield.
Its fairly easy to hit, even a huscarl, shielder at the sides and back (with ranged that is).
I dont see needs to buff shielders atm - but nerfing it seems odd.
They have been nerfed alot in the previous patches, and they arent swinging faster then other weapons.
Sure steel pick is faster and give alot of damage, but its anoyingly short.
Polearms users are chrushing shielders like a knife through warm butter.
This game is about picking your enemy, instead of chosing the closest to you.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on June 02, 2011, 01:50:52 PM
Edit : was in the wrong topic, go there instead :

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,7305.30.htm
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on June 02, 2011, 04:59:08 PM
I think that there is a easy solution to the 2h/polearm hate. And as Kafein wrote in another post, the polearms is dominating the 2h's atm. I could get a list of reasons why polearm is better, but i will make this easy.

2h:
- Fix the stab animation (it moves like its only 3 fps)
- Remove the stun after your stab gets blocked (which means enemy can hit you, without you having a chance to block it)

Polearm:
-Remove the polearm stun. (you can get hit twice without having a chance to block)

That is from my point of view, the only big problems.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lezard on June 02, 2011, 06:31:47 PM
I think that there is a easy solution to the 2h/polearm hate. And as Kafein wrote in another post, the polearms is dominating the 2h's atm. I could get a list of reasons why polearm is better, but i will make this easy.

2h:
- Fix the stab animation (it moves like its only 3 fps)
- Remove the stun after your stab gets blocked (which means enemy can hit you, without you having a chance to block it)

Polearm:
-Remove the polearm stun. (you can get hit twice without having a chance to block)

That is from my point of view, the only big problems.

I agree. Also we could do without the polearms hitting through teammates with overheads. :/ But most of this is hardcoded I believe?

Edit: Actaully, there's no need for 2h stab fix. Just get rid of polearm stun, faulty hitboxes and melee is fine.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on June 03, 2011, 02:10:08 PM

Edit: Actaully, there's no need for 2h stab fix. Just get rid of polearm stun, faulty hitboxes and melee is fine.
No the stun after the stab needs to get fixed. A sword should be a fast weapon(other than flammy). And the fact that the big ass polearms doesnt get stunned like the 2hs does is retarded.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Vibe on June 03, 2011, 02:42:24 PM
I'm pretty sure polearms get stunned too at blocked thrusts.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Paul on June 03, 2011, 03:23:14 PM
Every melee weapon gets stunned when their thrust is blocked. It is a Native mechanic. Here is Armagan commenting about it:

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,88556.msg2286430.html#msg2286430
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: _GTX_ on June 03, 2011, 03:46:47 PM
I'm pretty sure polearms get stunned too at blocked thrusts.

Idd they do, but the durotion isent as long as on the 2h, and the 2h's stun shouldent last as long because its a smaller weapon in general.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: SalmonGod on June 03, 2011, 10:32:10 PM
I've seen a couple people mention that athletics needs a slight buff regarding acceleration.  The slowdown over certain types of terrain is excessive and reduces high athletics to the same speed as everyone else.  I do think this is silly and would like to +1 to increased acceleration and/or less slowdown over adverse terrain for athletics.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 09, 2011, 09:41:43 AM
lol looks like everything needs a nerf
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Penchik on June 09, 2011, 11:19:25 AM
lol looks like bullshit, give us strat instead.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on July 01, 2011, 03:49:24 AM
I demand to be buffed. Nerf eneryone else and give me a 100str increase so as I can have uber epeen and feel like MAN!
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: polkafranzi on July 01, 2011, 08:37:49 AM
I demand to be buffed. Nerf eneryone else and give me a 100str increase so as I can have uber epeen and feel like MAN!

here, have a -1 instead
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on July 02, 2011, 01:45:40 AM
Couching, buff. Increase length of jousting lance to 290 so that pokes don't out range it in a head on charge (SO STUPID!).
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Frankysan on July 02, 2011, 02:02:25 AM
Couching, buff. Increase length of jousting lance to 290 so that pokes don't out range it in a head on charge (SO STUPID!).
Even if u were joking u won -1 bar man.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Kafein on July 02, 2011, 02:59:24 AM
Even if u were joking u won -1 bar man.

Poke-lancing is actually stupid and unrealistic the way it is in Warband.  Medieval cavalry was dominated by 1h and couched lances because one handed poking lances didn't packed enough impact (that's why people developped couched lances in the first place).
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Gevlos on July 04, 2011, 04:19:33 AM
Poke-lancing is actually stupid and unrealistic the way it is in Warband.  Medieval cavalry was dominated by 1h and couched lances because one handed poking lances didn't packed enough impact (that's why people developped couched lances in the first place).
depends on what you call mediaval, and how much power it takes to "pack enough impact". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsSS5D7GCCM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsSS5D7GCCM)

if I get one-"shotted" as an e.g. archer in gambeson by a cavalry man poking me with light lance in full speed, that's not stupid.

but you're right that the way it "works" in warband is very unrealistic, simply because your lance is not stuck once you "poke" someone hard enough with it.  as far as I know the goal in the "classic" joustiong tournaments was to bust your lance on the opponents shield. doesn't that tell us something about the durability of a medieval lance?
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Lichen on July 04, 2011, 07:41:07 PM
I think there are some things that could be adjusted here or there but is the goal balance or realism (or a mix)? Because There are some very unrealistic things which are 'overpowered' but may not be overpowered in a balance sense....For example after playing archer for a while (not even a high wpf one either) I find it to be too accurate. No RL archers were that accurate at such range and especially considering the bows that were used back then. Also archers being able to penetrate plate armor is ridiculous even with a long bow. Course there are overpowered things in melee. Like swinging what logically would and should be 'unbalanced' weapons at ridiculous speeds. Like swords being able to damage plate armor wearers, etc etc. Unfortunately I think many players are too set in their ways to adapt to a dramatic reworking of weapon effectiveness and downsides so......
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Hardlegend on January 29, 2013, 11:15:46 AM
bumping to the top.


BOULDER ON A STICK IS MISSIN!!! FOR WAY TO LONG!!

WE ALL WAANT IT BACK!!!!

GIVE US BOULDER ON A STICK!!!

Screw that other silly lookin thing.
stupit long maul looks like it dont do any damage its no BOULDER ON A STICK!!!

Legend92.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Renay on January 29, 2013, 08:36:42 PM
Dude, this thread is 2 years old
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Uther Pendragon on January 30, 2013, 12:21:29 AM
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Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on January 30, 2013, 03:14:25 AM
Bring forth the banana! (aka the lance of compensation!)
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Quentry on February 04, 2013, 01:38:50 PM
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+1
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Apsod on February 04, 2013, 07:39:19 PM
+1
There is a button for that.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: no_rules_just_play on March 05, 2013, 12:12:37 AM
the problem here is that not every class has as much people playing it and every class votes in favour of his own class. this vote cannot represent what needs to be done. however i want to add this (as im a piker myself): i hear people complaining about how stupid polearms are, but look it this way:

polearms are shit and thats because the way they work is total bullshit.
its stupid that pikes can block, for me you could remove it (i use pikes all the time).
but just removing block on pikes wont do shit. isnt it retarded that 500 pikes can be blocked by a single downblock? isnt it retarded that someone can walk up to somebody that has chambered his pike (not releasing it) and walk through the 3m long piece of wood? why do you guys think pikers are playing like frogs? because they cant be stationary like real life pikers, they need to jump away when a single twohander just walks straight through their formation. they have to break their formation and try to stab him from behind. they need to jump away when somebody walks through their ghost-pikes and starts swinging at their face.
isnt it stupid that a twohanded stab reaches further than my long awlpike or that a hoplite can outrange my long spear with a ashwood pike? if you take away the pikes close combat abilities, dont take away our long range abilities too! we cant fight a hoplite or twohander from close, but if we take some distance he just stabs us in the face with his retardedly long piece of metal.

there is so many things that need to be changed, but stop talking about buffing/nerfing. WE NEED CHANGE NO BUFFS OR NERFS. if we ask the community what to nerf or buff, they will just make the game so retarded that archers start kiting or pikers start jumping like frogs, that even xbowers start kiting and that...

oh wait.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Jack1 on March 07, 2013, 01:28:02 PM
I say don't buff or nerf any specific class. The main thing I don't like is the price vs ability.

For instance, the Danish is pretty much even with a heavy bastard in a 1v1, the Danish is only better agents cav, couse of the length, but the Danish costs soooooooo muchhhhhh moreee

Basically, no buffs, no nerfs, just change the prices so that the better weapons cost more
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on March 08, 2013, 01:29:31 AM
There is a button for that.
1+
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: dontgothere on March 19, 2013, 02:31:06 PM
i know this is old now but
gotta love that "buff thrown" got the most votes  :mrgreen:

thx bros
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: LordLargos on March 20, 2013, 07:15:18 AM
Poll was closed more than 2 years ago and people are still (no sarcastically) saying throwing and 1h are underpowered and 2h is overpowered.
Title: Re: Official Survey about item power
Post by: no_rules_just_play on March 20, 2013, 11:24:37 AM
a personal rant, wich alot of people agree with:

hoplites and 2H are overpowered in comparison with pikes (1 or 2 directional polearms)
why? well, i think we all can agree that 2h is very good at facehug distance (aka duels). their swings are fast as fuck, the blocking feels very natural and they have instahits (stab and swing almost never glance). People tend to agree way less when we are talking about shields, but actually they are still pretty damn good in close combat: almost 360 degree magnet shield for autoblock AND instastabbing. yes hoplites can stab while facehugging maybe its harder vs 2handed players but... they also dont suffer a long glance when their stab gets blocked.

so conclusion: 2h and hoplite are very good at close combat. so what?

now we look at pikes (as i am piker i really felt this). We can all agree when a 2h attacks someone with a long spear/pike/long awlpike, he can easily win in a duel by facehugging and spamming. pikes are just slower and have very little directions to attack in. against hoplites, in facehug distance they will surely lose because the hoplite shield gives a huge glance when its hit and because the stabs are so instant.

ok, no problem. dont cry pikes, you suck at duels? so what? your long awlpike has 185 length, just outstab that guy with his pathetic longsword of 106 nab reach or that hoplite with warspear: 150 reach lol, poke at him from a distance. so easy. pike easymode.

WELL NO. this is fucking bullshit. a low length 2h easily outreaches my long awlpike. a warspear with a shield does the same. a ashwood pike does the same with a long spear. their stab has a huge bonus for some retarded reason and when a polearmer chambers his weapon, he stands there: bend forward like a retard his head open for all attacks while twohanders and hoplite just stand straight (wich is also weird because nobody would be able to hold balance like that).

so whats left for us pikes? we should be able to poke from a distance and suck in close combat. but at the moment we suck at both (oh yes, they still want us to suck more and they want the blocking to be removed, because the majority of twohanders  wants all the power for themselves.

btw: another thing, the turnspeed nerf. good addition in my opinion, but it sucks. and why? because it only looks at the weapon length on the site, while in fact the actual reach is way longer for the faster twohanders and hoplite weapons. we basically turn slower because our weapons is 'longer' but we dont feel it because we get outstabbed by the faster twohanders and hoplites.

its just gay...